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Author Topic: justice Department to defend Obama care as right to levy and collect taxes  (Read 1559 times)
buzzbee
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« on: August 02, 2010, 09:48:19 PM »

I thought this wasn't a tax!!
http://www.azhealthcarefreedom.com/article/why-the-obamacare-tax-penalty-is-unconstitutional-
see paragraph two
Google this,it's out there everywhere.Stephanopolous questioned  Obama if this was a tax increase. Of course he said absolutely not,but sure is funny he defends it as Congress right to levy and collect "TAXES".This is the only Constitutional ground this bill can legitamately stand on.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/health-care/4092-white-house-changes-story-on-individual-mandate

http://article.nationalreview.com/431915/the-taxing-power-of-obamacare/robert-a-levy
« Last Edit: August 02, 2010, 11:37:53 PM by buzzbee » Logged
kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2010, 10:38:13 PM »

yup.  as soon as states started challenging the feds right to compel the purchase of insurance, they had to come up with another plan.  a tax is the way to do it. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2010, 08:58:24 AM »

I've noticed there has been less talk about taxes and more talk about "fees", "levies", "fines", "contributions"....

"Tax" is such a negative word.
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Rick
bigbearomaha
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« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2010, 09:06:42 AM »

A rose by any other name...
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kathyp
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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2010, 10:02:12 AM »

Quote
talk about "fees", "levies", "fines", "contributions"....

states are really good at that. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2010, 11:52:06 AM »

as the father of a special needs child, the insurance companies were just raping us. Denying services that would be covered if my child didn't have special needs. Cost's increasing every year, 19% last year, plus doubling out of pocket expenses to 10,000dollar deductibles( the bad part is we meet this by February)

People can get angry about the health care reform and those are most likely people whom dont really need the health care, but those of us that do need it, we welcome the change, right now. When the government is involved they will find a way to screw it up, but with out this in the next ten years it would cost us 1,500 per month in coverage, and the deductibles will be 80,000.

something had to change
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kathyp
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« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2010, 02:24:45 PM »

i don't think anyone argues that things needed to be done about the cost of health care and insurance.  the argument is against a government take over of the health care system and the mandating of the purchase of insurance.

i have no doubt that for some people like you, there will be relief in the short term.  for the rest of us, we are screwed.  in the long run, it will destroy health care as we know it and will end up costing all of us more in taxes.

2000 pages of changes that no one read, and worse, much of which was TBD by HHS, is not the solution to what was a relatively small problem that needed a relatively small fix.

you need only look at the rationing, and cutbacks in other countries....and even in states like mine and MA which have tried to offer more comprehensive coverage, only to find that not only was it prohibitively expensive, but also inefficient, to see how this is going to go.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bigbearomaha
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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2010, 02:38:52 PM »

Quote
and those are most likely people whom dont really need the health care,

That is the biggest load of bull droppings I have ever heard.

 I can tell you  I am one of those who cannot afford the insurance offered by employers at my last job and  I equally can't afford to be 'penalized' for not paying for insurance  I can't afford.

Yet and still, who the heck is the gov't to tell me how to manage my health care?  I am one of those who believe that if they really wanted to do something about the problem, they would have taken it up directly with the insurance companies who are screwing everyone on every level.  They get money from the doctor, the hospital, the patient, and anywhere else and yet are still allowed free range in the health care bill for the most part while the individuals get saddled with the bills in the long run.

That's not a solution, it's another version of the 'good ole boy' network.  gov't politicians helping out their rich buddies.

so you're welcome, you're costs went down at the expense of people like me who can't even afford insurance.

as long as it works out for a few huh?

Big Bear

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slacker361
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« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2010, 03:24:05 PM »

who do you think pays for people that dont have insurance and they go to the hospital only to not be able to afford to pay the hospital. it doesnt become a right off , other people pay for that person not paying for their own health care. If you declares bankruptcy on your credit cards , the rates go up for the rest of us to cover that loss, the business will not eat that loss, just as insurance companies would not take the loss, they either raise premiums or drop you. I would love to be in a win win business like that, trust me I would rather walk the rest of my life in your shoes or even poorer and have my child be normal, I would sell my soul to have him be normal , so no I do not want my cost to go down on your account

Sometimes there are things more important than money
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rgy
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« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2010, 03:49:09 PM »

"there's more important things than MONEY."


"pay their fair share"

I only hear that from people who have THEIR hand in MY pocket.
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2010, 05:06:51 PM »

since this has been written about at length, i'll just give you my RD version  grin

the biggest problem with the cost of health care is that everyone has come to expect that someone else will pay for it.  we expect our employers to provide insurance.  we expect that the state/feds will pick up cost when it gets expensive for us.  we want the best of care but not if we have to pay for it.  if most care were paid for out of pocket, market forces would bring down the cost of most care.  if you went to the doctor and he said you needed a wrist splint YOU would care how much it cost.  you would not pay 50 dollars for the splint you could buy at the drug store for 15.  because insurance will be billed, most people don't even know what the cost of their care is.

in addition, most docs will no longer do charity work.  the insurance costs for malpractice are to high.  where indigent people used to get free or reduced care, they no longer can find clinics in many areas where that kind of work is done.

it is unfortunate that your costs are high.  it does not follow that you have a right to my money because your costs are high.
 it is true that we all pay for the uninsured, but even at that the cost of paying for their care is far less than what this national health care plan will cost all of us.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
buzzbee
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« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2010, 05:24:23 PM »

Slacker,
I can only hope that with having a child with special needs that some bureaucrat somewhere does not make the decision that the benefit does not outweigh the cost and lessen any health care that may be forthcoming. This is how rationing works when there is not enough money or doctors to go around.
When has a bureaucrat made the best decisions for others.I fear for when these times come.
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slacker361
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« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2010, 05:28:22 PM »

I think i see the problem, I am not asking for your money or anyone elses money, I am asking to stop being raped by a company that feels they have the right to continue to raise how much they charge me, for doing nothing, really what does a health insurance company do? move papers from one place to another, it was government that allowed these businesses to get so strong that now they cant control them.

I would like to restate that I do not want your money or anyone elses money, I earn my money as everyone else does

I agreed with everything you said Kathy until you said that I want your money.

Lets look at it this way, I could not turn down health care when I started my job over 10 years ago. They said we offer it you have to take at least the basic amount. So I have to take this insurance, and now they can raise costs on me or drop me if i use the insurance. what a scam. I would love to be able to stack the deck in the favor of I own a company that is guaranteed not to loose money, if it does loose money all I have to do is raise or drop.

No I dont want your money anymore than I want to give you my money, I just want to stop being raped by big business
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slacker361
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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2010, 05:34:58 PM »

Slacker,
I can only hope that with having a child with special needs that some bureaucrat somewhere does not make the decision that the benefit does not outweigh the cost and lessen any health care that may be forthcoming. This is how rationing works when there is not enough money or doctors to go around.
When has a bureaucrat made the best decisions for others.I fear for when these times come.

there already is health care rationing, it has been around for a long time, well before health care reform came in. IMHO there is only 2.6 doctors / 1000 people across the US, that include specialist and of course as always, the richer you are the better care you get.

as far as benefits out weigh the cost, well they would have to make that decision on me too, somethings you dont give up with out the fight of your life.

I think i should stay to the main forum, I like the people here and the kidding around that occurs on not so serious matters. I appreciate those that took the time to give thoughtful feed back.
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buzzbee
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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2010, 05:35:15 PM »

It astounds me that in the whole healthcare debacle,that not once do I hear about taking on ambulance chaser lawyers. This is also a big factor in the cost of medical care.
Insurance is a business,they throw out a number that styates how much money they make. But they fail to add the number of dollars invested to make those profit numbers.
If a company invests 100 billion dollars and gets a return of a billion,all thats reported is that they made a billion dollars off the backs of the American people.When really,they only got a 1 percent return on investment.That would be a poor return in anyones eyes.

  This are thrown out as a for instance,not actual numbers. You can understand what I mean by this.

As far as my original post,the ones that brought you healthcare are now admitting it's just another way for the government to take your money. It will not be secured away from spending on other things,much like Social Security has been spent.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 05:46:08 PM by buzzbee » Logged
kathyp
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« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2010, 05:58:52 PM »

and that is a legitimate problem.  it is a problem that could have been addressed and solved in any number of ways.  instead, we have this monstrosity of legislation dropped on us.

i actually fear for the future of children like yours.  if you want to see the thinking of the people who are now in charge of how our health care will eventually be distributed read the writings of Ezekiel Emmanuel Special Adviser for Health Policy to Peter Orszag.  he is one of those advising on the best practices and standards for health care.

he has outlined who should and should not get care in a rationing situation (rationing to include cost considerations, not just availability of care).  he has considered the merits of euthanasia but will it work here?

you can look up his writings if they are still on line.  they are pretty interesting.

 then there is this one...but oops, the WH has pulled her website on the .gov.  Nancy-Ann DeParle in the pocket of pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies......

some people look at this HC plan as a mess.  some look at it as salvation.  it is neither.  it is the most they could do at one time to destroy the current system.  after many years of waiting for the day when the power grab could be made, they took the biggest step they thought they could get away with knowing that someone would come behind them and finish what they had started.  the eventual turmoil caused by this legislation will cause people to beg for a fix.  because govt broke it, they will expect govt to fix it.  single payer is the goal and with it government control over so much of our lives.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bigbearomaha
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« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2010, 06:33:38 PM »

slacker, the point is, that the government has no business telling you or me how to handle our individual health care needs.

If they were serious about remedying the situation, they would take a serious look at how the insurance companies play everyone else off each other and keep raking money in from all ends.

but no, they just help the insurance companies with their big shell game and leave us to keep dealing with the mess they make.

BTW, for your information,  I don't take that 'public money' if at all ever possible.   I pay in cash.  It's amazing how cooperative hospitals and doctors offices can be when there is green right in front of them and not having to play the gov't/insurance shell game to get their money.

Big Bear
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