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Author Topic: 1 gallon+ per day of 1:1  (Read 2460 times)
Chrisd4421
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« on: August 02, 2010, 12:37:32 PM »

Wow...first hive, checked a few days ago, no honey anywhere - started feeding in a thf.....putting in about 1.5g to start - 2 days later - bone dry.  Put in 2G - 2 days later bone dry - jsut finished making another 2G batch - will put in today and check tomorrow....

Is this normal?  This is my first hive and the heat in NJ has been high and around for a few weeks....just broke 2 days ago....

Thanks
/Chris in NJ
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Finski
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« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2010, 03:01:26 PM »

.
Stop stop stop

It is summer now and don't fill the hive with sugar. There must be room to brood.

If you have 5 frameof bees, 1 frame of food is enough. It is about 2,5 kg food.

If you have one box full of bees, 2 frames of food is enough.

Before autumn you feed them for winter.
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slacker361
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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2010, 03:56:10 PM »

i dunno chris I am all confused now , i thought i understood but now I am not sure
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Chrisd4421
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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2010, 04:25:58 PM »

Finski,
    I have 24 frames of bees and no stores....not a drop - not even an ounce overlooked - this is why I started feeding....now we are also entering a dearth here in NJ.  Now that they are taking syrup, 1+ gallons a day seems like a lot....

I hope this clarifies my position... - If you still think I should stop feeding, please explain a little more....I do want to do the right thing and I am a complete newbie here..

Thanks
/Chris in NJ


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HomeBru
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« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2010, 05:04:54 PM »

If there's nothing out there for the bees and they don't have any stores, feed 'em. We're into our late summer dearth here and doing the same. I've been warned that feeding 1:1 will simulate a flow and encourage brood, not a bad thing if you're still trying to get them strong enough to last the winter. Thicker 2:1 will give them stores for winter. without stimulating egg laying. (Again, this is what I've read/been told)

How big is your hive? Lots of bees? Feed them enough 1:1 to keep them fed but not packing away stores if you're hoping to get some fall honey from them.

my $.02

Jay
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montauk170
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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2010, 05:32:14 PM »

If you want them to store, you should be feeding 2:1 instead of 1:1. 1.1 will encourage them to build combs and brood.
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David Stokely
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« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2010, 06:16:37 PM »

I messed up with feeding last year and lost both my hives.  I fed my 2 new packages 1:1 all summer and fall.  Had a huge population going into the fall.  I could never get ahead of it by feeding 1:1 and they never built up stores their numbers were so large and they starved out.  Be careful what concentration you feed them.  It effects what they do with it.
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gunner7888
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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2010, 08:09:35 PM »

  Its all sooo confusing. Mike from Bjorn Apiaries told me to build numbers going into winter. His quote was "I do what I can do, which is feed fondant in winter if needed, I can't make brood" He said most loses over winter was not from lack of food, but lack of numbers to keep it warm. (boy I hope i got that all right  lol)

  What would the bees do with 1-1 syrup as opposed to 2-1 this time of year? I am still trying to get comb built up in second deep in 3 new hives.

  Scott
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CountryBee
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« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2010, 08:44:38 PM »

Eat 1-1 store 2-1 only if neccessary to feed. Smiley
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Chrisd4421
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« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2010, 11:06:27 PM »

OK...think I got all of that...I will continue with 1:1 unitl the dearth passes...then in October, I will go to 2:1 to help them build stores before the winter sets in...


Not to be a jerk, but what about 3:2 - Isn't this what some here feed?

THanks
/Chris in NJ
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Finski
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« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2010, 11:29:08 PM »

.
One gallon is surely enough to avoid starving to death.

I suppose that you have 2 months time when normally you should prepare the hive to winter.

If your hives brooding is too small, feed 1:1 syrup a litre and then after some days again a litre. No idea to make stores now. To draw foundations durint the time when bees do not get food outside, it is not right. Comb drawing is hard work and bees will be dead too early.



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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2010, 11:53:57 PM »

I think there is a difference between a new package and an established hive.  If there are plenty of drawn frames then 1:1 may be unnecessary.  But with a new package that does not have enough room for winter honey storage, you want to keep them drawing.   In addition, a first year hive is not so likely to have serious mite problems.  Constant feeding of sugar prevents a break in the brood cycle which can lead to more severe mite issues in established hives.

Also, there may be a big difference in flow patterns between locations.  Here in NC there is currently a dearth and only a weak fall flow to look forward to.  We don't have the luxury of waiting until November to get the bees ready for winter.
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« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2010, 03:14:43 AM »

I think there is a difference between a new package and an established hive.  


What ever the start is, for example a swarm, you cannot feed the hive full of sugar in the middle of summer.

No idea to mix varroa into this soup. I have had varroa 30 years.

Quote

If there are plenty of drawn frames then 1:1 may be unnecessary.  But with a new package that does not have enough room for winter honey storage,


The winter cluster is as big as the brood area before autumn.


Quote
Constant feeding of sugar prevents a break in the brood cycle which can lead to more severe mite issues in established hives.


But it does not mean that you give 5 gallons syrup to the small hive or any size  --- in the middle of summer.

Quote
Also, there may be a big difference in flow patterns between locations.  


Of course it is. It needs only 5 km distance and it is very different. Then, if you get nothing, you can move the hive to the pålace where they get food.

Since now red clower is the only plant which gives food to bees. It does not give nectar but pollen keeps brooding on.
Perhaps in forest pastures hether gives something. It depends on rains. We have very dry here.


I have here my flow curve.  It is stop noew but still, I cannot fill the hive with sugar. I do it at the beginning of September.

http://www.mtt.fi/bees/anjalankoski10.htm
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BjornBee
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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2010, 06:19:49 AM »

 Its all sooo confusing. Mike from Bjorn Apiaries told me to build numbers going into winter. His quote was "I do what I can do, which is feed fondant in winter if needed, I can't make brood" He said most loses over winter was not from lack of food, but lack of numbers to keep it warm. (boy I hope i got that all right  lol)

  What would the bees do with 1-1 syrup as opposed to 2-1 this time of year? I am still trying to get comb built up in second deep in 3 new hives.

  Scott

Hey gunner. You heard right... Wink

What is happening now for most hives, is a stoppage of comb building. You still may get a few hives building comb, but for most, they will stop. And all that frantic feeding because the hives are light, ends up meaning a back-filled brood chamber, come the time when the queen should have ample room for fall brood.

Once the summer solstice has passed, and the days are now getting shorter, many bees go into a frugal period where comb building ends if there is any empty comb to store nectar. They would rather store nectar than make more wax. And they begin storing it in the brood chamber, making the brood area smaller and smaller.

Since most beekeepers go along with the traditional procedures of winter prep, which is nothing more than hefting the back of the hives, they will feed, feed, feed! Without really knowing the impact or consequences.

The fall brood period here in the northeast should be about 60 days long to sufficiently allow the colonies to raise enough brood to overwinter with a large cluster of young bees. That period is, or would be ideal, from about Aug 15 to Oct 15. And they should have at least 6-8 frames of brood. But all that feeding many times means that the queen is compressed into just a couple frames.

I look at many beekeepers dead hives in the spring. They always have ample food stores around a small cluster of bees. I ask.."So how much brood did you see last September?" and they look at me like deer in headlights. They comment something along the lines of "I'm not sure, But the boxes were filled with bees". The bees did not starve, but for perhaps the inability to move. They died because the cluster was too small to deal with the cold and function properly.

Many things can impact the cluster size. Disease, bad queen, natural cycle of the bees, back-filled brood chamber, etc. Those things a beekeeper should focus on, but many times it's all about what it feels like hefting those hives. And many think because they were fed, fed, fed, and now they feel heavy, that the beekeeper did his hives right.

What I can do as a beekeeper, for a healthy and fully populated hive, is provide all the food needs in about 30 seconds for any hive to get through winter. Gasp....I know this will go against all those who swear that nobody should be feeding sugar and that bees survive better on honey rather than other sugars. What I can not do, is squat and lay eggs for them. So I must do everything to get them to raise brood and populate the hives with fall raised brood. Understanding what is happening with all that sugar syrup, along with other key beekeeping principles such as weight feeding versus stimulative feeding, allows you to go into winter with young bees with sufficient numbers to deal with winter. If they don't have sufficient numbers of young (and healthy) bees, everything else is just throwing money away.

I'm not saying that one should not feed. But it is a balancing act at this time of the year. And if all they are going to do is backfill the brood chamber, and ignore your desire for more drawn comb, than it can be detrimental to the colony's survival later by impacting brood rearing that should start very soon.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 07:52:54 AM by BjornBee » Logged

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Chrisd4421
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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2010, 08:20:18 AM »

What is happening now for most hives, is a stoppage of comb building. You still may get a few hives building comb, but for most, they will stop. And all that frantic feeding because the hives are light, ends up meaning a back-filled brood chamber, come the time when the queen should have ample room for fall brood....

BjornBee,
    Thanks for this information...it really helps me as a first year student to truely understand the why's.  It give me a new perspective and lets me know what to look for, what to expect and what the larger picture is.

My next step is to stop feeding so heavily, do a good inspection and try to get a feeling of where the hive is in terms of space, brood and stores as a whole picture.  I do understand I may need to still feed due to a dearth right now but I may not do it as heavily and/or in the same manner.
Thanks!!


/Chris in NJ
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2010, 08:49:29 AM »

OK...think I got all of that...I will continue with 1:1 unitl the dearth passes...then in October, I will go to 2:1 to help them build stores before the winter sets in...
THanks
/Chris in NJ
Chris, you don't say if your bees are drawing new comb.  If so,  I think you are definitely doing the right thing feeding 1:1.  You say you have not overlooked any stores.  I guess that means that there is no backfilling of the brood nest.  In that case, I would say that some of these worries about hurting brood production are unnecessary.  If they are building comb and you see some backfilling, you can add empty frames to the brood area to give them room for continued egg laying. 

Feeding sugar is a necessary evil.  Especially for a new hive.  If you leave them with honey, an established hive should not need feeding.
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2010, 09:04:35 AM »


What ever the start is, for example a swarm, you cannot feed the hive full of sugar in the middle of summer.
 

Well, you can if they are drawing comb.  You just have to make sure the brood nest stays open.  Add empty frames to the brood nest.  The bees will make more space for eggs.  I agree with you if they are backfilling and not drawing comb.

 
Quote
No idea to mix varroa into this soup. I have had varroa 30 years.
 

I'm saying that I agree with you in the case of an established hive.  They don't need to be fed.  And sugar will cause more mite problems.  But in a first year hive,  from a package or swarm,  feeding is more necessary and will not cause mite problems since they have already had a break in the brood cycle from swarming or being put in the package.
Quote

The winter cluster is as big as the brood area before autumn.

But that might not be big enough.  And they might not have enough honey to survive.   


Quote

I have here my flow curve.  It is stop noew but still, I cannot fill the hive with sugar. I do it at the beginning of September.

http://www.mtt.fi/bees/anjalankoski10.htm

Do you get another flow in the fall?  I think you are saying you feed sugar in September after you have enough brood.  But remember that in a warmer climate,   the winter brood build is in November.    The bees might not cluster until mid December where I am.  And they break cluster during the winter on warm days.  They actually use more honey because they are more active in the winter.  But there is still no new food coming in, so they still need large honey (or sugar) reserves.
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2010, 09:32:44 AM »



What I can do as a beekeeper, for a healthy and fully populated hive, is provide all the food needs in about 30 seconds for any hive to get through winter. Gasp....I know this will go against all those who swear that nobody should be feeding sugar and that bees survive better on honey rather than other sugars.  

I don't understand what you mean here about all the food being provided in 30 seconds.  You lost me.

Quote
What I can not do, is squat and lay eggs for them.  
But I know you would if you could.   grin

 
Quote
But it is a balancing act at this time of the year. And if all they are going to do is backfill the brood chamber, and ignore your desire for more drawn comb, than it can be detrimental to the colony's survival later by impacting brood rearing that should start very soon.
Exactly what I was trying to say.   You said it better.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 10:05:26 AM by FRAMEshift » Logged

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Finski
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« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2010, 06:23:57 AM »


The winter cluster is as big as the brood area before autumn.
But that might not be big enough.  And they might not have enough honey to survive.    [/quote]

IOf the colony is not big enough for winter, I join it to some else.

I take almost all honey off and give sugar enough. No problem or thinking what to do.

Quote

Do you get another flow in the fall? 

Our flow season is about one month long.  There is a flow often at the beginning of June but seldom hives are ready to forage surpluss.

After September we go to the winter. When the hive makes brood in September, it makes sometimes tight that the last emerged bees can empty their gut.
Our plants start to prepare themselves for winter in August what ever weather it is. Plants read the time from day lenght.


Quote
I think you are saying you feed sugar in September after you have enough brood. 

No. before middler og August the hive must have enough brood. Then all vegeation is dead and hives stop laying. A young queen continues 2 weeks more than old queen. But it depends on pastures. If the hiveas are in woods, they stop brooding in the first half of August. If bees have rec clover field neaby, they continue brooding to the end of August but not more.
Night will be nearn freezing point.


Quote
But remember that in a warmer climate,   the winter brood build is in November. 

Actually I need not remember that. ... What I meant, if you are in warmer climate, don't prepare hive for winter in July.


 
Quote
  The bees might not cluster until mid December where I am. 

In every place they have different systems. Every beekeeper must clear it out what are fatral days to do things.


Quote
And they break cluster during the winter on warm days.  They actually use more honey because they are more active in the winter.  But there is still no new food coming in, so they still need large honey (or sugar) reserves.

My bees get sugar stores in September and they manage with it to May. I do not touch hives at all between Ochtober and Marsh. I do not give them Crishmas presents like some does and I do not look are they alive. They are alive, and if not I cannot help them any more. So it goes.

If I have problems after 47 beekeeping years, it is normal. Nothing is perfect. I keep 20% extra colonies for winter losses. I do not cry after them.

.


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slacker361
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« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2010, 09:33:41 AM »

so I have a hivetop feeder, it has two chambers, i am sure you are all familiar , so should I put 1:1 in one side of the feeder and 2:1 in the other side?

this way they have the best of both worlds?
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Finski
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« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2010, 09:56:16 AM »

.
Very clever. I wrote that stop feeding. Take the feeder off
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« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2010, 06:19:52 PM »


Our flow season is about one month long.  There is a flow often at the beginning of June but seldom hives are ready to forage surpluss.

After September we go to the winter. When the hive makes brood in September, it makes sometimes tight that the last emerged bees can empty their gut.
Our plants start to prepare themselves for winter in August what ever weather it is. Plants read the time from day lenght.

Finski, I think I see the source of confusion. David's in Pennsylvania, about the same latitude as I am. (you're at LOWEST 60N he's between 39 and 42N, BIG difference!) We get a fall flow in August, usually goldenrod mostly but also fall raspberries and other wildflowers. Depending on the weather, bees can pack quite a bit in during that month.

J-

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Finski
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« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2010, 12:05:39 AM »

.
I know that . That was not a question.

Question was, it is harmfull to fill the hive with sugar in the middle of summer.

Against starving 1 gallon 1:1 syrup is enough.  It has nothing to do with climate.
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« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2010, 08:22:39 PM »

Five of my hives are only one deep full, will they survive winter?  Should I feed?  Thanks Smiley
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« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2010, 10:13:42 PM »

Five of my hives are only one deep full, will they survive winter?  Should I feed?  Thanks Smiley

NO!

I live here in north. My bees are just making brood for winter cluster. It is summer here.
I arrange just room for laying. It is hurry to take honehy off and give empty combs for brooding.
I try to get my hives 2 box wintering. Now they have 5-8 boxes.

I unite hives if they are not full one box for4 winter. I have too much colonies.
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« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2010, 05:26:13 PM »

Finski, you said do not feed but combine the five hives for winter right?  Sorry I couldn't understand the first time. Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2010, 06:34:46 PM »

dont the queens battle each other if you combine hives, or do you "wack" one of the queens
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« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2010, 08:41:17 PM »

I personally put a piece of newspaper between the two deeps and let nature take its place.  If the two queens fight they fight, but I never had them swarm or leave after I put them together.  They eat thru the newspaper and their scent and stuff mixes and they are all best of friends after 2-3 days.  Never had one of the queens leave the hive with the bees after or had a bunch of dead bees before so something works somehow.  After a week if they have any empty frames between the two deeps I move them to the top and fill the bottom full first and take out any uneaten remains of the newspaper.  It is neat how it works. grin
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