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Author Topic: Unconstitutional?  (Read 6835 times)
Jerrymac
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« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2010, 03:22:41 PM »

I didn't change anything.  You asked me if I thought it was ok for armed Mexicans to cross the border illegally.

I hate when I have to go back and remind someone about what they said. We were talking about illegal aliens, non-citizens. You said they had a right to bare arms and peacefully assemble. THAT IS WHAT YOU SAID. Those people crossed the border illegally, armed or not. You can not say they have the rights afforded in the constitution and then say it is wrong to do those things. Make up your mind.

   If I see someone speeding, and the police don't stop them, is it ok for me to run them off the road to enforce the speed limit.  It's not my job to do that. 

Not run them off the road but there is such thing as citizens arrest.

Similarly, the state has no power over national borders or illegal immigrants.  I agree that the failure of the feds to enforce the law is terrible.  I have said what I think would make a good comprehensive solution that could actually pass the Congress.

And as Kathy ask, why are law enforcement officers required to make arrest on SOME federal law violations and not on others?

But in the US we don't have to carry documentation of citizenship.  And driving without a license is not grounds for deportation.  These are state authorities and have no business enforcing immigration law. 

When I get caught driving without my license, I get looked up on the computer. I guarantee if there is nothing on there about me, I am going to be hauled off to jail and they are going to find out who I am. Can you get a driver's license with out being a citizen? Can you get insurance with out a driver's license? How do you prove the car you are driving is yours if you can't prove anything else about yourself?
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kathyp
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« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2010, 03:23:03 PM »

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Ok, then support a comprehensive law that finds out who they are and allows the law abiding workers among them to stay

border first.  they are not law abiding if they have come here illegally, however, if they have been here and are working and are clean, i would consider letting them stay on a case by case basis.  i am not for a blanket decision that just lets them all stay.  if they are here and sucking off the system, they  need to go.  anchor babies are not a reason to stay.  

it's less that we need comprehensive reform.  we need to enforce what we have.  i'm not for another 2000 pages of new laws that no one reads before they pass, and we find out later what's in the thing.

prove you can close the border and then we'll work on the other stuff.  

i'm not heavily into compromise and i believe this  is more about security than about jobs.  i am one of those who knows that many of these people who come in do take the jobs that no american will do.  i grew up on the border and in farm country.  i never really had a problem with the farm workers, but now we have people coming to our country to blow things up.  that makes for a different game.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2010, 04:10:51 PM »

border first.
And that's the end of the negotiations.  If you don't believe in compromise, then the other side is not going to compromise either, and there will be no change.  It's been that way for many years and our situation just gets worse.  It can't be case by case after the border is closed because frankly, the left does not trust the right to be fair.  It has to be a comprehensive agreement.   And the sooner the better.  Or would you just prefer to keep complaining about it forever.
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« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2010, 04:19:37 PM »


I hate when I have to go back and remind someone about what they said. We were talking about illegal aliens, non-citizens. You said they had a right to bare arms and peacefully assemble. THAT IS WHAT YOU SAID. Those people crossed the border illegally, armed or not. You can not say they have the rights afforded in the constitution and then say it is wrong to do those things. Make up your mind.
I did not contradict myself except in your ideological landscape.  Yes they entered illegally.  Yes they have rights under the Constitution, including the right to be armed.  No they have no right to cross the border.  The Constitution recognizes certain rights as universal to mankind.  Although we can't enforce those rights outside our own border, we recognize that all people in our country have those rights, no matter how they got here.  These are basic human rights.  Like the right of freedom of religion or freedom of speech.  Or the right to defend yourself with a gun.  Universal human rights. 

Crossing international borders without approval of the government is not a universal human right.   Earning a living and being with your children is a universal human right.  Since we have tolerated and benefited from having hard-working illegals here, and we have a legal system that makes their children citizens. then we can't separate families by deportation.  If you need a more legalistic reason, the children are citizens and have a right to stay.  And children have a right to have their parents with them.  That is a basic human right.  We have taken advantage of these people and we owe them something.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2010, 04:32:33 PM »

Look at this

http://www.mnforsustain.org/immigration_hiring_law_excerpts_from_us_code.htm

In there is written...

State and local law enforcement officials have the general power to investigate and arrest violators of federal immigration statutes without prior INS knowledge or approval, as long as they are authorized to do so by state law. There is no extant federal limitation on this authority. The 1996 immigration control legislation passed by Congress was intended to encourage states and local agencies to participate in the process of enforcing federal immigration laws. Immigration officers and local law enforcement officers may detain an individual for a brief warrantless interrogation where circumstances create a reasonable suspicion that the individual is illegally present in the U.S. Specific facts constituting a reasonable suspicion include evasive, nervous, or erratic behavior; dress or speech indicating foreign citizenship; and presence in an area known to contain a concentration of illegal aliens.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2010, 04:40:12 PM »

And I really like this part

A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:

    * assists an illegal alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or
    * encourages that illegal alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or
    * knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.

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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2010, 04:47:09 PM »

In there is written...

State and local law enforcement officials have the general power to investigate and arrest violators of federal immigration statutes without prior INS knowledge or approval, as long as they are authorized to do so by state law. There is no extant federal limitation on this authority. The 1996 immigration control legislation passed by Congress was intended to encourage states and local agencies to participate in the process of enforcing federal immigration laws. Immigration officers and local law enforcement officers may detain an individual for a brief warrantless interrogation where circumstances create a reasonable suspicion that the individual is illegally present in the U.S. Specific facts constituting a reasonable suspicion include evasive, nervous, or erratic behavior; dress or speech indicating foreign citizenship; and presence in an area known to contain a concentration of illegal aliens.
Are you aware that what you are quoting is just someone's opinion about what the statute means?  Apparently the federal judge in this case disagreed.
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kathyp
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« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2010, 04:47:18 PM »

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And that's the end of the negotiations.  If you don't believe in compromise, then the other side is not going to compromise either, and there will be no change.  It's been that way for many years and our situation just gets worse.  It can't be case by case after the border is closed because frankly, the left does not trust the right to be fair.  It has to be a comprehensive agreement.   And the sooner the better.  Or would you just prefer to keep complaining about it forever.

it's not about fair.  it's about getting the job done.  fair would be to round them all up and send them home because they broke the law.  compromise is what you do when you don't have a strong position, or can't articulate one.  

if i had my way, the word 'fair' would be struck from the dictionary.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2010, 05:12:41 PM »

Attention all peoples of the world. All countries, all nationalities, sneak into the USA from anywhere and don't worry about the local law enforcement, they can not ask you any questions about where you are from. We carry no IDs, citizenship papers, or any other documentation to show we are American citizens. It does not matter that you can not speak or understand English.

Come one come all. Hurry. Get here now as there is an amnesty coming up if our President gets his way.

No one can deport you but the INS and they are already too busy.
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« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2010, 05:22:48 PM »


it's not about fair.  it's about getting the job done.  fair would be to round them all up and send them home because they broke the law.  compromise is what you do when you don't have a strong position, or can't articulate one.  

if i had my way, the word 'fair' would be struck from the dictionary.
But your side is not in a strong position and so far you have not articulated a position that can pass the Congress.  Democrats won't accept your ideas because THEY view it as unfair (whatever YOUR position on "fair" may be).  And Republicans will not support your ideas because it means hurting American business, which likes cheap labor.  That's why the current state of affairs has existed for so long under both Democratic and Republican majorities.  There will not be any change until Democrats believe the solution is fair and Republicans see a way to keep the cheap labor.  I think my suggestion meets both criteria.
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« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2010, 05:29:11 PM »

Attention all peoples of the world. All countries, all nationalities, sneak into the USA from anywhere and don't worry about the local law enforcement, they can not ask you any questions about where you are from. We carry no IDs, citizenship papers, or any other documentation to show we are American citizens. It does not matter that you can not speak or understand English.

Jerry, I think the border should be closed.  I think English should be the official language of the US.  But I don't see you wanting to compromise enough to actually get anything changed.  Republican candidates love using immigration as a campaign issue but they aren't going to do anything about it because to actually get a bill passed, they would have to accept some form of amnesty, and that would kill them with their base. The base needs to wise up and do what it takes to make a deal.  Close the border and provide a path to citizenship for those who have worked here for 2 years.  Do you want a solution or do you just want to wave your arms and shout?  It's time to make a deal.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2010, 06:49:12 PM »

OK I am going to play dumb here and ask, just what do you mean by closing the border?
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kathyp
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« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2010, 06:49:26 PM »

doesn't really matter what we think.  what we'll get is another executive order that grants amnesty and the boarders will still be open.  the states will not be able to protect themselves.  the feds will still not do their job.  

the only thing that surprised me about 9/11 was that it had not happened earlier.  i predict that the next round will be lots and lots of ft hood type attacks, NYC car bomb things, malls, etc.  we will get to experience life as the Israelis live,  never knowing when going to a public place will cost you your life.  it is only a matter of time before they train more competent terrorists.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2010, 07:27:01 PM »

OK I am going to play dumb here and ask, just what do you mean by closing the border?
I mean a fence of some sort, physical and (in isolated areas) surveillance backed by by mobile forces.  Minefields if necessary.  Whatever it takes to control movement of people.  The crossing points should involve close inspection of truck cargoes.   Maybe a fast lane for traffic leaving the US.   grin  It would also mean rigorous followup of visitor visas.  It would cost a lot but would be worth it in the long run.

Actually, I agree that closing the border would have to be completed before the amnesty could be introduced, but the entire deal would have to be in the law before anything happened.  You could have triggers for amnesty based on the success of the border closing.   There will be no law at all without compromise between border control and amnesty.  It's politically possible to do this, but it doesn't help if you scare your Republican rep about voting for a deal that includes amnesty.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2010, 07:33:50 PM »

Next question. How long would it take to get the fence in place if the process was started tomorrow?
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2010, 07:35:21 PM »

OH and when you are talking about mine fields remember there are little kids roaming around.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2010, 07:35:51 PM »

Migratory animals
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« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2010, 07:50:08 PM »

Next question. How long would it take to get the fence in place if the process was started tomorrow?
I have no idea.  A surveillance fence would be fast but not very effective unless there was a big backup force.   I suppose terrorists could always get in, but if you force them to be on foot, it limits somewhat the damage they could do.   
Quote
OH and when you are talking about mine fields remember there are little kids roaming around.
I think the minefields could only be in isolated areas far from roads and behind some kind of fence.  If you don't like it, come up with a better idea.  My point is that amnesty is necessary to get a deal.  How much border control will satisfy you enough to agree to amnesty?
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2010, 08:04:58 PM »

OK Amnesty. Does that mean automatic citizenship? Just safe from prosecution but move back South? Stay in the country for awhile till you get a green card? Just what would this amnesty be like? How much will it cost the Tax payers in court cost?
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« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2010, 08:34:44 PM »

OK Amnesty. Does that mean automatic citizenship? Just safe from prosecution but move back South? Stay in the country for awhile till you get a green card? Just what would this amnesty be like? How much will it cost the Tax payers in court cost?
Bearing in mind that I don't speak for the entire Democratic party  grin,  I think it means a pathway to citizenship.  Obama has said it means "learn English" and "go to the back of the line" .  Would it mean that employers would have to pay back wages (if they paid less than minimum wage) and social security deductions that they never made?  I doubt it since there are no documents.  My guess is pretty close to what you said about a green card.  Maybe with a language requirement and eventual citizenship.  Deportation for those who have not been here long.  Of course, that's what negotiation is for.   I know that many Democrats understand that the border has to be closed but they don't want illegals thrown out if they have been contributing members of society.  

I know that many Democrats want strict enforcement of laws against hiring illegals to reduce the attractiveness of coming across the border.  If Republicans will agree to that, maybe it will be easier to drastically reduce illegal crossings.  I think that would make the rest of the negotiations easier.

There is a lot of politics on the table over this.  Lindsay Graham pulled his support for an energy bill because he wanted immigration to be up first.  Now that energy is dead until after the election, maybe immigration could move.  On the other hand, if Republicans start grandstanding against amnesty, there will be no bill until after the election.
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