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Author Topic: Why mark queens?  (Read 9571 times)
BjornBee
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« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2010, 06:32:04 PM »

It's just some one trying to PUSH their agenda down our throat angry to mark are not too mark who Care's do what you want it's your bees

Why is a discussion about the pro/con issues, ramifications, consequences or any other opinion, seen as "Pushing" one's agenda.

The bee forum by it's very existence, is a place where people come together and discuss issues, opinions, observations, and experiences.

If it came down to what you label it, John should just close up shop and we should all go home....  Wink
You keep bring up this thread just to get people to argue under the so called discussion thing.
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« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2010, 03:19:57 AM » Quote  

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This certainly is not the only often repeated subject on this forum.

And to take my words in jest from a post on coffee house forum is also humorous.

Not sure if your jabbing for a reaction, or just playing the role of antagonist. But it seems this is about the fourth time you take a swipe, while complaining about another person.

Who gets to determine what is an argument Irwin. People post their conflicting views, which almost always could be called an "argument". I see nothing but a discussion. One that can be debated, discussed, analyzed, and called many different things. People post on this thread by their own choice. But can we at least quit chiming in and suggesting someone is doing something you do not like.

Sitting back suggesting "Who cares, everyone should do what they want", is not really what a forum is based on. It's a place to exchange ideas, debate on merit, discuss in passion, and allow others to see the motives and ideas of the next person.

Keep jabbing all you want. I'm not biting.  Wink
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« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2010, 07:25:19 PM »

I enjoy reading some of Mikes post that ask the quesion why just because it sparks the answers that would sometimes never be thought about. Have to admit that when I started to keep bees it was the fascination with looking for the queen and it was easier to find her with the untrained eye. I have had one problem with marking one that the paint marker went ballistic after it was activated and I painted just about every part on her Majesty that was not to be covered. It is nice now to see her quickly as the frames are pulled, so to keep her in a safe area, if you have to do some dirty work to straighten out a condition in the hive. Sometimes we see queens on frames that have great brood and the time just does not make it practical to keep the hive open any longer than necessary so we close it up and move on without marking. The age thing is one of the better reasons that I will continue to mark them even if it takes a year off her life, so that even if she is performing well after two seasons she can be put into a nuc and replaced with a young queen to carry the strong hive through the winter and be less likely to swarm.
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« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2010, 07:58:04 PM »


I do indeed practice the "WWFD" (What Would Feral Do) and I have yet to see a feral queen emerge marked.  Either from a swarm cell or a supercedure cell.
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I agree with WWFD, but if you want to take the bees' perspective, you would have to say that feral queens ARE marked very clearly.... by pheromone.    No, you haven't seen that marking, but the bees see it just fine. 

This matters if you as a beek want to simulate what the feral bees do, which is to swarm with their queen.  If you do a split and want to take the old queen along for the ride, you have to find her.  Is this worth marking the queen with paint?  I don't think so because I usually can find her.  But I can see that someone who wanted to simulate a swarm or pinch a bad queen might like to make that easier.
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« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2010, 08:16:04 PM »

Problem is, you can Google ANYTHING and find that it causes cancer.  Heck, the EPA is trying to tell us that CO2 now is toxic waste, never mind the fact it comes out of our noses every minute of every day.  Does anyone here know a female that has had her fingers fall off or succumb to cancer known for a fact to have been caused from simply wearing fingernail polish these days?  And sure, I'm sure you can find some really fun things in fingernail polishes in some countries, but here?  No, sorry, I'm not going to fall for fear-mongering propaganda against nail polish for Pete's sake.  And again, comparing a manicurist that breathes that in it's liquid, fumigating form for 20 years hardly compares with a bee having a dried dot of paint on her back for 2 to 5 years.  Apples to oranges regardless.  A bee's exoskeleton is nowhere near as porous or reactive to things as human skin. 
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« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2010, 08:28:30 PM »

I've worn fingernail polish for years without effect grin

Scott
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« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2010, 08:28:45 PM »


So a new beekeeper gets a marked queen. This sets in motion a few actions seen over and over again.

1) The new beekeeper will look for the marked queen upon almost every visit into the hive. See eggs, see larvae, see everything else....does not matter. The inspection is not complete until the queen is found. After all, with a marked queen, it is supposed to be much easier...right?

Ok, so I am from an AHB area so I guess I get a "bye" on my reasons....   grin

But I found the above statement to be an exaggeration.  Over and over?  Occasionally would be more accurate.  I never once bothered to look for my queen my first year as long as I saw larvae.  Yes, it was exciting to find her if she was on the frame I was inspecting, but to say that "over and over" people believe an inspection is not complete until they found the queen and would dig through 2 boxes to do so is stretching it a bit.  Or maybe I just missed those posts.   Wink

Now the one time I did have to dig though 2 boxes to find the hot momma (and not hot in a good way) I was sure thankful they hadn't superceded her and she was still marked because I have never been in such a cloud of angry bees (they were AHB hybrids).

As to your argument that the chemicals harm the bees - until there is a study showing that to be the case then your argument against it is no stronger than those for it.  Just because the chemicals have not been approved for bees and the MSDS says they are toxic does not mean it harms the queen.  Toxicity is always a function of concentration, duration and method of exposure and only an actual study can determine the effects.  If you want to go for the emotional argument, then I think you have won that one LOL.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2010, 08:48:46 PM »

Problem is, you can Google ANYTHING and find that it causes cancer.  Heck, the EPA is trying to tell us that CO2 now is toxic waste, never mind the fact it comes out of our noses every minute of every day.  Does anyone here know a female that has had her fingers fall off or succumb to cancer known for a fact to have been caused from simply wearing fingernail polish these days?  And sure, I'm sure you can find some really fun things in fingernail polishes in some countries, but here?  No, sorry, I'm not going to fall for fear-mongering propaganda against nail polish for Pete's sake.  And again, comparing a manicurist that breathes that in it's liquid, fumigating form for 20 years hardly compares with a bee having a dried dot of paint on her back for 2 to 5 years.  Apples to oranges regardless.  a bee's exoskeleton is nowhere near as porous or reactive to things as human skin.  

Fear mongering propaganda...dang, I thought we were discussing an issue.

I bet it was fear mongering when the first person suggested that certain past widely used illegal off-lable chemicals not be used in the hives. Of course, now we realize that is was not fear-mongering, it was fact.

Funny thing is I simply ask for someone to show proof or supply a company willing to go on the record that their product be used for bees. I made the phone calls, I asked the question. Not one will state it so.

So I strike up a conversation that perhaps everything from testors paint, nail polish, and modeling super-glue, may be a topic for discussion, and it turns into "fear-mongering propaganda" statements.

10 years ago, I heard the same thing about the massive amounts of illegal off-label chemicals being used in the industry. Today through CCD testing of comb, and actually crawling out of the dark neanderthal position that beekeeper seem to remain, that those chemicals were doing damage.

I also hear the same from farmers after beekeepers try to suggest the damage being done to the bees by everything from pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, etc. And it is classic that the farmers do what some do here...stand behind the label, and make claims of "proof there is damage" and deny that they can not possibly be part of the problem. After all, the label says "bee friendly" in some form. They suggest that since the EPA approved it, it can not possible be doing damage. I wouldn't put too much into approved anything from the EPA.

But we DO know that fungicides in particular, has dire consequences once mixed with other chemicals. Since I do not think the average women wearing nail polish soaks her fingers in acid treatments, or is  exposed to chemicals on the levels we know bees are, the whole "what's good for a women's nails is good for bees" is certainly not equal in any manner.

So we have farmers claiming beekeepers are running around crying wolf and denying their chemicals are part of the problem, and we have beekeepers doing the same.  So slap on that paint, super glue and whatever else. Nobody ever proved damage. And those farmers will claim the same.

My next door neighbor who applies massive amounts of chemicals, also claims that he is doing nothing wrong. He claims every week when that lawn care truck pulls up that if it were bad for the environment, there would be no way that they would allow them to come and spray as they do. Really sad.

Funny thing is....nothing ever gets solved or improved such as chemicals without some well founded fear mongering and someone making it an issue.

I expect these statements. it's good to get them out in the open. Many still today say smoking never effected their health. Afterall, they smoked for so many years, and they have not died yet. But it usually takes  an eye opening experience for some to change. I never said you should not be able to smoke (or mark queens) but please don't try to suggest that it does not harm anything. I can show you many products that this same claim was made, only to be found out later when actually tested, that is was detrimental. And that...is not fear-mongering. That is fact.
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« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2010, 08:49:37 PM »

Quote
you would have to say that feral queens ARE marked very clearly.... by pheromone.

You are correct.   I know what a queen looks like,  I know what to look for.   I don't feel a pressing urge to find her 'easily'  Maybe  I just like the sport of tracking her down every once in a blue moon just to keep the queen spotting skills in shape.

Quote
But I can see that someone who wanted to simulate a swarm or pinch a bad queen might like to make that easier.

Pretty much as I said, if that's what one wants to do is mark for easy finding, go right ahead.  it's your hive.
 I don't 'need' to mark a queen to find her if I want to do a split or identify her for any other reason.

simply because one doesn't mark queens doesn't automatically mean they don't do splits or otherwise.  It just makes the hunt that more exciting.

 Wink

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« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2010, 11:04:07 PM »

I'm not down for marking queens all the time, mainly because I'm lazy, but I do prefer to have them marked. If I buy a queen, I ask for it marked. If I'm going to mark one queen, I mark them all while I'm at it. It's easier to see her so I'm extra careful putting that frame back in (crushing a queen between two frames once and you'll look every time Smiley). I like to know if they are superseding or swarming, but I don't HAVE to know. All in all, piece of mind is great.

As far as the toxicity argument goes, last I checked beekeepers were marking queens for centuries. We haven't heard anything about decreased life yet. Of course, that doesn't mean that it doesn't decrease life. My point though, is it's great to read all the information, and once someone can show that it is dangerous, I'll consider something else. Until then, the pros outweigh the cons (at least to me).

And yes, I was one of those beginner beeks who didn't stop until they saw the queen, but that's what I learned in beginner classes. That isn't to say that I didn't look for eggs or laying pattern, as that was always more important, but I was taught that you need to find the queen when you open it up. But then I was also taught that you need to find the queen once a week at a minimum durring spring swarm season, just to make sure she didn't fly the coup. It wasn't until my fourth or fifth year that I got too lazy (and tired of getting stung for being inside the hive too long), and decided to only look for eggs and laying pattern. Now, if I find the queen, awesome. If not, whatever. They are doing good and will continue to do good without me (most of the time).
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« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2010, 11:14:11 PM »

It's just some one trying to PUSH their agenda down our throat angry to mark are not too mark who Care's do what you want it's your bees

Why is a discussion about the pro/con issues, ramifications, consequences or any other opinion, seen as "Pushing" one's agenda.

The bee forum by it's very existence, is a place where people come together and discuss issues, opinions, observations, and experiences.

If it came down to what you label it, John should just close up shop and we should all go home....  Wink
You keep bring up this thread just to get people to argue under the so called discussion thing.
.Re: how do you unwind?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2010, 03:19:57 AM » Quote  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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This certainly is not the only often repeated subject on this forum.

And to take my words in jest from a post on coffee house forum is also humorous.

Not sure if your jabbing for a reaction, or just playing the role of antagonist. But it seems this is about the fourth time you take a swipe, while complaining about another person.

Who gets to determine what is an argument Irwin. People post their conflicting views, which almost always could be called an "argument". I see nothing but a discussion. One that can be debated, discussed, analyzed, and called many different things. People post on this thread by their own choice. But can we at least quit chiming in and suggesting someone is doing something you do not like.

Sitting back suggesting "Who cares, everyone should do what they want", is not really what a forum is based on. It's a place to exchange ideas, debate on merit, discuss in passion, and allow others to see the motives and ideas of the next person.

Keep jabbing all you want. I'm not biting.  Wink
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« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2010, 11:19:01 PM »

I've worn fingernail polish for years without effect grin

Scott
jaw drop lau lau
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« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2010, 11:32:04 PM »

I guess comparing human skin to the honeybee exoskeleton as highwinds points out is okay as far as painting something.Even though they are not the same thing.
If there is fear mongering,it is stating that because these companies have not proven these items as bee safe or bee approved ,that ultimately it must be unsafe.
  That was my point with the comparison to electricity.
As far as testes,they make model paint,why would they wish to prove it safe for bees.that does not prove it's harmful.I wouldn't spend the money on it either.
 Has any one documented that queens die or are harmed other than by handling for marking?
Powdered sugar hasn't been tested by the sugar company as safe for a mite treatment,but evidently people have had success with it.
Water is a harmful substance if handled improperly.
  Is anyone treating against foulbrood or nosema,even if the bees aren't afflicted? You know,fumagilin in the spring,just in case?Terramycin,just in case? This would bother me much more than marking queens.And i think these items were proven"safe for bees".
  Just for the record,my queens are not marked,but thats because i just don't feel like it.And I surely do not belittle the guy that wants his queen marked. Especially a beginner that would like assistance in learning to spot queens.
 
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« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2010, 12:05:47 AM »

I think I have the SOLUTION. All you need is SOY INK and THIS



  Brian
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BjornBee
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« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2010, 07:46:23 AM »


 Has any one documented that queens die or are harmed other than by handling for marking?
Powdered sugar hasn't been tested by the sugar company as safe for a mite treatment,but evidently people have had success with it.
Water is a harmful substance if handled improperly.
  

Not sure anyone really ever looked into it. We just do not know. The only thing I know for sure is not one manufacturer will go on record and acknowledge that it should be used for bees.

The powdered sugar comparison should be looked at like this. If you powder sugar your bees, at least it is with a product that you probably feel safe also eating. Marking a queen with testors paint (or anything else including super-glue) and doing the same equivalent marking on yourself (an 18 inch disc would be a good comparison) is something I have yet to find any volunteers. I'm betting you enjoy the powdered sugar and no side effects. With the 18 inch paint disk on your back, I bet we have complications after awhile. Of course I don't think the exoskeleton of the bee is as impervious as some may suggest.

For the record, here is a partial list of some of the ingredients in one of the marking pens sold by major suppliers.... The paint product contains such chemicals as VMP naphtha, Ethyl Benzene, Xylene, High Boiling Aliphatic Hydrocarbon, Anti Flooding Agents, Diarylide Yellow pigment, and Copper Phthalocyanide pigment.

Buzz, since I used your quote above, I should state the following is not about your comments.....

I would think that beekeepers would be a group most skeptical of the products being offered for placement into their hives. Especially with the history of the products marketed, and approved, which always come back later to be a detriment to the bees. I would think beekeepers would be cautious and demand products that are absolutely known to be safe, without guessing or rationalization. I was wrong.

By I guess we are no different than what we see with the homeowner who feels the need to kill every clover, dandelion, pest, and insect in his backyard in some attempts to keep his yard "easier" to handle, for that little postage stamp plot, while thinking he is living the Utopian dream. Or that farmer who needs bees because there are no native pollinators due to some reason that he just can't grasp.

I've looked into the products being offered. And until I started "fear-mongering" awhile back, seems nobody gave much though about a product we slap on the backs of our queens. I offered this topic for discussion, but it seems we still have a long way to go for some, who will not even consider the possibility that it COULD be damaging our queens. They will buy the marketing hype, void of any actually testing, and deny from what I think is common sense. That common sense includes the understanding that maybe NOT running around with a 18 inch disc on your back is reasonable, and in line with perhaps not asking the same of your queens. To me, that is common sense.

Funny thing is, I sell lots of queens to people who killed a queen trying to mark her, or had one fly away while handling her. Maybe I should promote marking queens...now that would be an agenda!  rolleyes



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« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2010, 09:36:52 AM »

I think I have the SOLUTION. All you need is SOY INK and THIS



  Brian


Would that soy ink be from organically grown soybeans, pollinated by SC, treatment free naturally mite resistant honeybees and stamped by an all natural rubber stamp produced in a free trade country or would Walmart's Equate brand suffice?
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« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2010, 09:55:34 AM »

K9,    grin



Don't even get me started on the carbon footprint that stamp would create.  rolleyes You have shipping of the raw materials from around the world to the point of manufacturing, the shipping of the product to your home, the packaging material and the associated industry to supply package material, the invoice and associated costs of the financial industry to process the credit card, trucking and possibly airline costs and so on. Let alone the soy production costs and processing, from the farmer who produces the soybeans, to the plant making the soy ink. And heaven help us if the unions are involved in any way. Wink

I figure the damage of one stamp probably comes in at 4 penquins, one polar bear, three bats, and half dozen frogs.  grin

All to mark a queen to see her better.........

lau

Best part.....this all from a beekeeper who probably says he is "natural" in his approach, and "thinks" he is helping the environment from his keeping of bees.  rolleyes (relax John, I'm not referring to you.  Wink  )

In fact this is humor...right?
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« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2010, 09:56:56 AM »

I think I have the SOLUTION. All you need is SOY INK and THIS



  Brian


That is disturbing, on at least a couple levels... grin
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« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2010, 10:12:23 AM »

There are a couple of things  I think relate directly to the practices and materials we use in everything we do, including working with honey bees.

Ideals and practicality.

We all have ideals, of some sort or another.  Something we think would work 'the best if...' a certain material is used, a certain process is used, etc...  We all have things we strive to do or make just a certain way because we think it is the 'best' we can do or get.

This has to be taken in contrast however to practicality.  While using a certain material or product might be 'the best' in our eyes, we have to determine how we use or implement on how accessible is it, how affordable is it, is it really what we think it is or is there something we don't know that may change opinion of it.

sometimes, practicality pushes us to make adjustments or 'settle' for those things we are not what we think of as the 'best' but only second best or next down the line in our perceived quality.

When I see someone say things like in this thread, I see someone expressing an ideal they hold and trying to determine publicly how practical it is.

While one person sees the topic as an ideal, another person may hold a different opinion, not seeing it as an ideal or seeing it in a lesser value instead.

it's ultimately just a theoretical discussion.  No one on this forum can MAKE others do what they think should be done. it's only a matter of expressing ones opinion.

However, being a public forum, we expect communication to happen in a way that is respectful of others and everyone elses ideas as well, so when one person makes a statement of "Everyone should do this thing this way or else"  it comes off as rude and/or insulting to many other people.

bjorn may not express himself in a way that comes off as well as others might like,  I have been accused of the same myself at times, but he isn't demanding that everyone change to doing things the way he sees it, and if he is, so what?  how on earth would he ever enforce it?

Sometimes to have a 'true' comprehensive discussion, unpopular or unpleasant things must be introduced to the discussion as well to keep all things in consideration.

of course, there are always the pot stirrers who like to get folks wound up just because they will fall for it.  That can be fun too. heh heh.


All in all, I think you should handle your bees and your bee yards they way you want to and if you can pick up an idea or tactic from seeing what someone else says or does, more power to you.

I am now through overstating the obvious here and return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Big Bear


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« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2010, 10:20:43 AM »

>>>>bjorn may not express himself in a way that comes off as well as others might like,  Ihave been accussed of the same myself at times, but he isn't demanding that everyone change to doing things the way he sees it,<<<<

Thank You, Big Bear....

Bjorn has a lot of great knowledge to share, and is willing to share it, even if his mode of delivery is questionable at times. I think the resulting rewards are well worth the pain of receiving the info.
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« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2010, 10:35:12 AM »


Bjorn has a lot of great knowledge to share, and is willing to share it, even if his mode of delivery is questionable at times. I think the resulting rewards are well worth the pain of receiving the info.

Sort of like a bone marrow transplant  tongue
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