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Author Topic: The $500 dollar challenge  (Read 7257 times)
indypartridge
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« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2010, 07:31:35 AM »

Great Thread !!!
Yeah, but no one has stepped up to sell Mike a hive.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2010, 07:52:47 AM »

Great Thread !!!
Yeah, but no one has stepped up to sell Mike a hive.

But that is ok...  Wink

I knew the outcome, the responses, the angles, etc. The conclusion of my supposed "purchase" of bees was already cast. It was presented that I wanted to kill the bees. Or that my study would be slanted to only one conclusion. It reaffirms and allows the repeated response that others who have gone down that path have had to deal with.

I was pleasantly surprised that some chimed in with thoughtful comments. That the genetics are at play. That selection is a contributor. And that there is more to the story of smallcell than the often repeated message sent to many new beekeepers. Anyone who simply thinks they will regress bees and somehow all their problems go away, they will be sadly mistaken.

I have no desire to purchase bees. My finding would mean nothing by doing the same thing I already have accomplished. My desire was to have a conversation perhaps to help others reading this thread that maybe they should think about both sides, consider all the ideas, and not base their decisions on one persons website, or one narrow view expressed.

Beekeeping is full of claims. Whether it bee smallcell, Warre hives, TBH, FGMO, vinegar machines, etc. Most have agendas or are out to promote their product, their position, ego, etc.

I enjoyed this thread. Conversations such as this is banned or not allowed on some of the forums by the very people who are out promoting one way of keeping bees or another. That should tell you something. And that is why I will never put on blinders, promote one type of beekeeping, and limit other beekeepers from access of the full range of knowledge from across the board. New beekeepers should be on alert of the snake oil approach to claims, systematically controlled by others, and any idea that attacks those with dissenting views.

And you should be thankful for having a place like this forum to do it all in..... Wink
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Livefreeordie
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« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2010, 08:13:29 AM »

Thanks for the thread Mike. As a REALLY green, close to beeing a beekeeper, I have learned a lot from this thread.
The practice of narrow mindedness is prevalent throughout our society, and at my age I stopped believing everything that is printed or spoken and insist on finding the information out for myself rather than blind faith. Many groups of people publish books, or sell products promoting a special technique, then spend the rest of their lives defending their theory, or worse yet, diminishing those who take another route.
I am glad after doing the reading and lurking I have here, that I have found someone who thinks the same way I do, and look forward to learning what I can from you. See you at the picnic and thanks for the thought provoking thread.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2010, 09:28:51 AM »

New beekeepers should be on alert of the snake oil approach to claims, systematically controlled by others, and any idea that attacks those with dissenting views.

And you should be thankful for having a place like this forum to do it all in..... Wink
Absolutely! I don't get that sense from anybody here on this forum, at least not in this thread, but there are some things that just "work" and it's hard to define all the variables or understand the interplay that causes them to work.

I would be very hard pressed to explain why my vegetable fields/gardens "work" in the organic system they are in. The variables are too many, too complex, too misunderstood by me. But they clearly work differently than crops grown in a conventional system.

I appreciate this thread because it is opening up my eyes to many of the variables in play by beeks that I respect and whose results I would like to someday have. I love my bee books, but this forum is where I get most of my information!
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The pedigree of honey
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buzzbee
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« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2010, 07:12:48 PM »

Threads like this are good as long as we discuss the ideas ,not attack the person stating the ideas.It has brought out a lot of thought and discussion.
In the end we may just have to come away agreeing to disagree,but points well made. Smiley
 But be very careful ,debate the ideas, and do not attack anothers point of view or experience and we can continue these debates.
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woodchopper
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« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2010, 09:32:29 PM »

 i don't have a problem with what anyone chooses to do in beekeeping.  we all have to find our own way.  i only have a problem with those who make their practices into a religion of beekeeping and berate those who do not worship at the same alter.
l wonder how many people here read these words and had an image of a beekeeper they knew appear because this statement describes them so well ? Well worded Kathy. 
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2010, 01:03:07 PM »

Beekeeping is full of claims. Whether it bee smallcell, Warre hives, TBH, FGMO, vinegar machines, etc. Most have agendas or are out to promote their product, their position, ego, etc.

And the interesting thing is that those claims and methods work great for some people for whatever reason, and will probably continue to do so.  And are worthless for others.

Like in medicine, there is always going to be a number one best way to deal with things and circumstances.  But there will always be people who respond better to one way versus another way.

Methods in beekeeping, like medicine are more about the person than it is about the bees or medicine, imho.  The only way to find the best fit is to keep an open mind and try the stuff.
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Rick
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« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2010, 09:57:52 PM »

Unlimited broodnest lets the bees build very large colonies, store a lot of food to overwinter and be available in case of dearth, and have resources for early spring buildup without artificial feeding. 

Another thing I've been thinking about just in the last few weeks is how unlimited broodnest might help to prevent swarming.  We hear that one factor in the swarming impulse is the dilution of queen pheremone in the hive when the hive gets too big.   But with unlimited broodnest, the queen is traveling up and down the center gut and making more contact with the entire hive.  I don't have any scientific studies to support this, just observation that our really big hives don't swarm and the idea of why they don't makes sense to me. 
Management includes adding a box when the bees have filled 8 frame or so, moving a few brood frames from the center of the box up into the empty box, consolidating the brood frames below and placing the undrawn frames from above on either sides of the broodnest (either small cell foundation or foundationless frames).   I keep adding boxes as long as the bees are building up and using the space. 



OK now that my curiousity has got the best of me, how do you handle the harvest and how offen do you requeen the hives ?
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bugleman
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« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2010, 02:24:21 AM »

Dun-ta-dahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   shocked

Bjorn Bee!

You get the USA discussion board topic of the year award from BUGLEMAN.

I like your exploratory attitude.

As for me and my Queens from Old Sol and feral swarms/cut outs, they are doing very well on Small Cell.

It has taken me a few years to get here, mainly 3 + 2 years of study.  I do have hives that look like Dee's. 

Yes Bjorn the genetics has alot to do with it IMHO mostly because I haven't done enough counting to say for sure.  The WSU queen I have on small cell will be interesting.  Going into the main flow they were 3 boxes of brood over a pollen box full of bees with 2 supers of bees on top.   Smiley  All very healthy. 

I can only laugh at the ignorance of the "experts" taking "Jerry Springer" bees then counting mites in a few months and declaring SC doesn't work especially with out a mention of Drone Brood.  They need to take small cell adapted bees and put them on standard commercial foundation.

I need to do better mite counting but I have bees with 3 boxes of brood on 4.9 plastic foundation for the last 2+ months that look spectacular.  I do drone brood manipulation.  So does Dee but she just limits drone brood production through comb selection.  Don't tell her I said it.  shocked In a few weeks I will do some say 24 and 48 hour natural mite drop tests and see how we line up this year and maybe take you up on your offer.

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BjornBee
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« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2010, 06:46:02 AM »


I can only laugh at the ignorance of the "experts" taking "Jerry Springer" bees then counting mites in a few months and declaring SC doesn't work especially with out a mention of Drone Brood.  They need to take small cell adapted bees and put them on standard commercial foundation.

While I very much enjoyed your entire post, we do need to keep it in perspective.

The smallcell study could of gone in many directions. But the main point was whether bees on smallcell generated fewer mites compared to larger cell sized comb. The main claim to smallcell at one time was the much shorter capping time and resulting fewer mites. (actually the first claim to smallcell was the idea that there simply was not enough room for mites to reproduce in smallcell comb....which was absurd. But I digress....  Wink  )  So they took similar bees and placed them on both smallcell and regular comb. There was nothing wrong with that. You don't need years of comparison or special bees. By taking smallcell bees and placing it back on larger comb, you are looking at different testing criteria, and that is apples to oranges. The comb was supposed to do the job based on this mechanism of the comb. And that, was shown to be NOT the case. Of course, smallcell advocates now needed to back up and reevaluate their talking points. First it was denial. Then excuses. And now we have come into the "well, there is much more into smallcell than just comb". Of course that is one of the things I have been saying for years. Through regression, many changed out their comb eliminating tainted wax, bred from survivor stock, etc.

And also keep in mind, at least two of these studies (Berry) were with an advocate and promoter of smallcell. So she was not exactly running "blind".

So starting colonies with a similar mite count, with "Jerry Springer" bees, is probably EXACTLY what was best to determine the mites being generated between smallcell comb and comparing it to the growth of the mite count compared to "Jerry Springer" bees on regular comb. It eliminated all the other factors (genetics, etc.) and keyed in on this one main point promoted by some for many years now.

The results were that the mites reproducing in smallcell as compared to larger cell sized comb, was basically the same.

And this was exactly in line with what I have clearly said for years. That when it came to putting bees on clean comb, not using chemicals, and breeding from survivor stock, changing over the surrounding feral bees, etc., I had seen the same results in most of my hives whether smallcell or not.

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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2010, 07:10:30 AM »

There are always unknowns to these types of issues that many folks never seem to consider.

I often think that a geological environment has an effect, be it great or small, on animals and insects like honey bees.

 I am thinking of magnetism, sea level, air pressure, and other circumstances given to a particular area that might encourage or discourage certain behaviors or anatomical processes due to the effects of said geological influences on biological creatures.

I agree with bjorn and kathy that people can become so fixated on something that to them it becomes more than just 'the' way to do things for them and they begin to expect it to be 'the' way for everyone else too, regardless of differences in environment or situation.

I myself am not opposed or in favor of 'small' cell as  I don't even think about it due to my being focused on running all natural comb foundation never enters the equation for me one way or the other in terms of cell sizes.

at the same time, I don't worry about if other people use foundation or not, if they want to, they do.  Now if you are helping someone in their bee yard, you may disagree with practices, but you should respect their methods knowing that you can do things your way in your own bee yards.

just my two cent,

Big Bear
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bugleman
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« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2010, 12:20:31 PM »

bigbearomaha,

Thanks for the Bear Hug.

I am convinced of the relationship that Lusby advocates between cell size and latitude/elevation.  When looking at the core spring brood nest, smaller cells are preferred in Northern climates, so for me that is the springboard.

I need similar sized comb in the spring to make swarm prevention manipulations so, all my comb is 4.9mm.

Bjornbee,

I must continue this discussion at a later date.  Now, I must get to work.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2010, 12:26:38 PM »

OK now that my curiousity has got the best of me, how do you handle the harvest ......
I would love to know this, too!
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The pedigree of honey
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ramona
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« Reply #73 on: July 10, 2010, 09:58:56 PM »

For anyone who is wondering how a harvest can be done from a hive 6 deeps tall (if you're not tall and/or particularly blessed with  supreme upper body strength), here is my report from a few days ago:

I used a wheelbarrow to move a step-ladder and empty deeps with foundationless frames to the hives. Had some 5 frame nuc boxes with covers already at the hives.

Got up on the step-ladder a few steps up so I was over the top box. Puffed a bit of smoke under the cover and opened. Went through each frame, removing the ones that were at least 3/4 capped, went down ladder for each frame, brushed bees off and and put it in nuc box on ground re-covering each time.

I replaced the harvested frames with foundationless frames, alternating with honey frames.

Once I had removed half the frames, no problem lifting the deep off and going down to the fifth box and repeating process.

Five frame nucs of full honey frames could be easily carried over to the wheel barrow at edge of the hives and wheeled back to car.

The second 6 deep hive top box had ten full frames of honey but no frames capped enough to take. I still removed 5 frames into the nuc box (not brushing because I knew I wouldn't take them) allowing me to get the top box light enough to lift it off and go down to the fifth to see what was going on there. Same as top box, ten frames full of honey but none capped enough to take.  I put the honey frames back in the top box AFTER I got it back on the hive. 

It is more time consuming to do it this way than being able to lift a whole deep full of honey (not that I even could) but because the bees are treatment free and the honey will easily sell at a premium, it's worth the time.

Was doing this in almost 100 degree heat and had to stop a few times for shade and water. The bees were amazingly calm...very busy processing the honey and whatever other tasks they were up to. It was pretty humid so I was expecting them to be irritable but they weren't.  I think with the unlimited broodnest the bees have plenty of resources and don't have to get defensive at some of their uppermost stores being taken.  Remember, all the boxes have full frames of honey at the outsides...queen is laying up the center gut.

My current thinking  is to leave all stores in the bottom four boxes for the bees.   After I extract the frames I took, I'll swap them out for the newly capped full frames and let the bees fill them again.  Will do this through fall and if bees for whatever reason have gone through stores in bottom four boxes will swap back full frames of honey into bottom four boxes so they go into winter with plenty of resources. 

The step-ladder is key...can't imagine having to work over my head to pull those frames and boxes!

Hope this explanation helps...

Ramona
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luvin honey
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« Reply #74 on: July 10, 2010, 11:52:46 PM »

Actually, it wasn't the height that had me puzzled. When you say the brood nest rises up the entire center of the hive, I was trying to figure out when/how you harvested. Do you wait until the broodnest consolidates before winter? In spring? Or, are there frames of honey on either side of the broodnest in each box of the hive?

Thanks Smiley
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The pedigree of honey
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« Reply #75 on: July 11, 2010, 06:49:45 AM »

Thanks for the description, Ramona. Because I don't yet have a good system of my own, it's really helpful for me to visualize how others work.
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ramona
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« Reply #76 on: July 11, 2010, 11:09:36 AM »

Hi All,

I'll start a new thread titled "working with unlimited broodnest" ...right now have to go extract all the honey!  Hope to be able to answer the ULB (unlimited broodnest) questions later tonight...

Ramona
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