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Author Topic: The $500 dollar challenge  (Read 7703 times)
wd
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« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2010, 07:42:15 PM »

Can't take you up on your offer however, I thought this was an interesting video.


HAS 2007 Jennifer Berry - Small Cell / Regular Cell Comparison - 54 min - 10 sec long

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kathyp
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« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2010, 08:21:14 PM »

NS...stuff your small inner voice.  if we all listened to it, we wouldn't have any fun   grin 

in the main, i agree with you.  we all should do what we find works for us.  we all also have some responsibility to the new to help them gather as much info as they can. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2010, 08:40:04 PM »

That I agree with 100%
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BjornBee
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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2010, 08:59:26 PM »

deknow,
That is correct, I am not quoting you.

My comments are from the overall message, often repeated, and just repeated on another thread 24 hours ago, with the simple message.....Regress to 4.9 and your mite problems will go away.

It is your comments in clear defense of these remarks, that make my comments directed at you. You need not say one thing or another or get defensive. It is your message, and comments being defensive, and spattering the conversation with 3000 of this, or two conferences of that, dropping names such as Lusby, and now mentioning your writing of a book....all adds up to you perhaps not being exactly quoted as saying this or that, but the message is loud and clear.

Someone said "regress and your mite problem go away". I questioned and targeted that. You defended it in every way. But now step back and suggest you actually did not say it.

If I said the sky was blue today, and everyone with me nodded in agreement, I certainly would or could suggest later that a whole bunch of people agreed that the sky was blue. Even though they may not of actually said anything. Same concept.

For the record, I have no clue who you are on other forums. I actually do not remember a "deknow", but maybe I forgot. Maybe if the screen name is different, you could clue me in. There seemed to be many conversations over the years between smallcell groupies, FGMO, and the like.

For the record (part 2).....I never wrote a book. So I have no vested interest in promoting smallcell. I was the first that I recall, to openly stick my neck out long before any studies or others coming forward discounting smallcell. But just as I give a pro/con view on many things, such as TBH and Warre hives posted on my website, I only say what I know, what I have found out, etc. No book deals. No speaker engagements. No stroking my own ego thinking I'm part of some movement while having blinders on, or making a name for myself trying to be on the cutting edge. I try it, and tell you what I found. I know that ticks some off.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 09:11:56 PM by BjornBee » Logged

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ramona
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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2010, 09:23:37 PM »

Selling one of our thriving, small cell, treatment free hives would be an economic decision, nothing to do with proving anything.  To get our bees where they are today represents a huge investment of time, money and energy on many levels.

We live in a society where as individuals in business for ourselves we are still free to set prices, ask for what we think something is worth and do business with those who are willing to pay.  There is also the emotional component...wanting something that we feel has great value to go to a good home, to someone who would equally appreciate the value.

$50,000 would be a more realistic figure for me to consider letting go of one of my current hives.  Whoever would be willing to pay would either be highly motivated to figure out why the hive is successful and to keep it going or be willing to spend a lot of money to prove that my hive isn't worth what they paid.  Less than $50,000 would not be enough of a motivation for me to give up a hive.  

In life there are no real shortcuts.  Ultimately, everyone has to figure things out on their own.  There are plenty of people to help along the way but you have to be open and receptive to what they can offer.  We didn't start with "special" bees, just sought out successful treatment free beekeepers, worked with them in their yards, paid attention to what we saw and tried to replicate as closely as possible what we saw them doing.  

Most people I've met (in all areas of life) are very happy to share what they know if they feel they are sharing with those who are sincere in their attempts to understand what is being shared.  This doesn't mean that they are willing to sell off valuable parts of their lives or livelihoods just because someone asks and has set the price at what they think the parts are worth.  Just because you want something and have set the price you are willing to pay doesn't mean you are going to get what you want at that price.  You may never get it from someone else at any price.  You may need to create it yourself.

Maybe the reason why, after 10 years, you are unable to purchase a fully functioning small cell, treatment free hive is that they are worth more to the people who have invested their resources to actually create them than they would be to you.

Ramona
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BjornBee
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« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2010, 09:42:57 PM »

Looks like the "Smallcell Grapevine" is all a buzz. Great first post ramona. Just can not believe that you happened upon the site and this was your first post. Let me say....welcome to the forum.

Tell all the other supporters of smallcell to drop on over.   grin

I'll withhold my opinion on someone not willing to sell a hive for 49,000 dollars. To think that anything short of 50 grand will not overcome some emotional attachment of a beehive is a bit hard to swallow.

I've heard some rather questionable things from smallcell groupies. Three years of failure while regression is completed, "leveling out" discounting studies, etc. But this may just take the cake. 50,000 for a hive. Although you have me snickering, I think the rationale has hit a new level in rationalizing, defending, and promoting smallcell.

Keep it coming. This is GOOD!

I hope anyone considering smallcell, is taking all this in. This emotional attachment from 3000 smallcell beekeepers, and the inability to purchase a hive for less than 50,000 dollars, is surprising to me. I've heard many excuses. But this well planned playbook response caught me off guard. So I will not be able to buy a hive as now all smallcell people will be on the same page claiming emotional attachment valued at 50,000 dollars.

BTW....I will be happy to sell one of my smallcell for 25,000. Paypal and credit cards excepted.   rolleyes
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 10:09:03 PM by BjornBee » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2010, 09:59:09 PM »

BjornBee,

I have mainly lurked here and other Bee forums and I have always respected your veiws.

I am curious what your theory is about all this? Another words do you believe the claims small cell keepers make about the mites, but they have mistakenly attributed it to the small cell or do you think they are just over stating their success? While you have not come right out and said it, is it safe to believe you don't think small cells helps with the mites?

I am a hobby Bee keeper, foundationless so I guess my bee's cells are what ever the bees make them. So I have no dog in this fight one way or the other......but I am always trying to learn.

Stu
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stu
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« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2010, 10:04:44 PM »

My comments are from the overall message, often repeated, and just repeated on another thread 24 hours ago, with the simple message.....Regress to 4.9 and your mite problems will go away.

again, those are your words not mine.  my mite problems did not go away until i regressed.  when i regressed they did.  i know other people not using treatments who don't have mite problems, some of them are on 4.9, some are on about 5.1, and some on 5.4.....many on natural comb that is being shuffled around willy nilly of all kinds of sizes.

Quote
It is your comments in clear defense of these remarks, that make my comments directed at you. You need not say one thing or another or get defensive. It is your message, and comments being defensive, and spattering the conversation with 3000 of this, or two conferences of that, dropping names such as Lusby, and now mentioning your writing of a book....all adds up to you perhaps not being exactly quoted as saying this or that, but the message is loud and clear.

i try to be as clear and as precise as possible when i talk or write.  if you're going to attribute statements to me, please quote me.  I've never said what you claim I said.
when i mentioned 3000 members on the orgainc iist and the fact that we have written a book (on exactly the topic you are questioning here in this thread), it was to point out that no one is keeping any secrets, and that the methods being used are discussed freely and readily available.
I can't control what you think "my mesage" is...I can only control what I say and write...and I stand by all that.  If I were to express my message in a few words it would be that bees should be kept without treatments, and without artifical feeding.  We found this to be possible after regressing our bees to small cell.

Quote
Someone said "regress and your mite problem go away". I questioned and targeted that. You defended it in every way. But now step back and suggest you actually did not say it.

what did I say?  I think I offered an opinion on the best way to regress...as did you, did you not (using a warre)?  I said nothing like "regress and your problems will go away"
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,28814.0.html
you are fabricating statements, and placing them in my mouth.  i don't really appreciate it.

If I said the sky was blue today, and everyone with me nodded in agreement, I certainly would or could suggest later that a whole bunch of people agreed that the sky was blue. Even though they may not of actually said anything. Same concept.

For the record, I have no clue who you are on other forums. I actually do not remember a "deknow", but maybe I forgot. Maybe if the screen name is different, you could clue me in. There seemed to be many conversations over the years between smallcell groupies, FGMO, and the like.

Quote
For the record (part 2).....I never wrote a book. So I have no vested interest in promoting smallcell. I was the first that I recall, to openly stick my neck out long before any studies or others coming forward discounting smallcell. But just as I give a pro/con view on many things, such as TBH and Warre hives posted on my website, I only say what I know, what I have found out, etc. No book deals. No speaker engagements. No stroking my own ego thinking I'm part of some movement while having blinders on, or making a name for myself trying to be on the cutting edge. I try it, and tell you what I found. I know that ticks some off.

yes, it's clear you are not stroking your ego rolleyes
discounting small cell was hardly ever "sticking one's neck out".
do you think i'm lying when i say what i've tried and what my experience is?

are you implying that no one besides you can find anything out for themselves?  ...or even that someone might find out someting that contradicts something that you found?  your contention seems to be that "small cell doesn't work"....but even if you had my best hive, how could you prove that "small cell doesn't work for deknow"?  or do you think bees are so simple that all that is needed is the right recipe?

deknow
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iddee
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« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2010, 10:09:18 PM »

Bjorn, I will take you up on that hive. Of course, you will also have to guarantee it will overwinter safely for 20 years and produce 3 deeps of honey each year. That, and help me find a market to sell that honey at 20.00 per lb. From what I have read here, that shouldn't be too much to ask.  rolleyes

I mean, my surviving hives, one of which was a swarm caught in 2001, and never treated, not even a screen bottom board, nor sc, only produced 84 lb. this year. I will consider myself lucky to average 5.00 per lb. for it, so the quality must not be near what sc honey is.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2010, 10:14:14 PM »

I currently have a swarm from a hive that is terrible with varroa. Parent hive is on old standard size comb from foundation. The swarm is on small cell foundation and are seemingly doing well.  This swarm was caught in late May.

I will keep this post in mind and will compare overall health of the 'same' bees in the 'same' yard.  2 different styles of comb is the only management.


To be continued.....


BTW.  I'll sell ya a totally reverted 2 box hive this next spring if the offer is still there.
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Mark Smith - Elkton, OR
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« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2010, 10:17:14 PM »


BTW....I will be happy to sell one of my smallcell for 25,000. Paypal and credit cards excepted.   rolleyes

Well shoot, if paypal and credit is excepted, that leaves cash or check, and I don't keep that kind of cash around!! tongue
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Rick
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« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2010, 10:20:56 PM »

BjornBee,
I have mainly lurked here and other Bee forums and I have always respected your views.

Thank you.

I am curious what your theory is about all this? Another words do you believe the claims small cell keepers make about the mites, but they have mistakenly attributed it to the small cell or do you think they are just over stating their success? While you have not come right out and said it, is it safe to believe you don't think small cells helps with the mites?


question #1....Yes.
question #2....Yes.
question #3....Help is a far cry from the sale of goods promoted by others. That is my point.

I am a hobby Bee keeper, foundationless so I guess my bee's cells are what ever the bees make them. So I have no dog in this fight one way or the other......but I am always trying to learn.
Stu

Nice choice going foundationless.   Wink
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BjornBee
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« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2010, 10:22:37 PM »


BTW....I will be happy to sell one of my smallcell for 25,000. Paypal and credit cards excepted.   rolleyes

Well shoot, if paypal and credit is excepted, that leaves cash or check, and I don't keep that kind of cash around!! tongue

 cheer

You got me....  Wink
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BjornBee
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« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2010, 10:26:53 PM »

Bjorn, I will take you up on that hive. Of course, you will also have to guarantee it will overwinter safely for 20 years and produce 3 deeps of honey each year. That, and help me find a market to sell that honey at 20.00 per lb. From what I have read here, that shouldn't be too much to ask.  rolleyes

I mean, my surviving hives, one of which was a swarm caught in 2001, and never treated, not even a screen bottom board, nor sc, only produced 84 lb. this year. I will consider myself lucky to average 5.00 per lb. for it, so the quality must not be near what sc honey is.

 grin  Hello iddee.

My best hive right now is a hive only opened once in the past two years. Not opened last year, and opened only once this year for the state inspectors. Total mite count.....0! And on regular foundation. Imagine that. And that can be comfirmed with the state....  grin  Nothing to hide here.

And if anyone wants to drop by I may open it again.....  Wink  I may need to take off a couple supers.
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« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2010, 10:58:08 AM »

I think Nasal Sponge had it...religion and politics...there is always a game being played by some one..if you don't like the rules they play by..don't play with them..

What I know about small cell at this point is worth a hole of beans..not much, but I am studying..I am a large fan of sustainable agriculture and natural production, so the small cell, top bar hives and pretty much anything else the allows the bees to be bees without making too many descisions for them is a point of interest to me...little buggers have been making honey for 60 million years..and we're going to tell them how to do it better.. grin

Of course, i'm not trying to make 10000 lbs of honey a year either..my operation will be small..for friends and family, and maybe a little to sell...

Heh..there is a chinese honey joke in here somewhere..even if it isn't funny..
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« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2010, 11:23:26 AM »

zopi, First, you take a natural variance of cell sizes and make them use one size only, as in sc, then you take a naturally vertical elongated hive like a hollow tree and make them work horizontally in a TBH.

Then you actually state you want to let the bees be bees.

You can't do both..............
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2010, 11:50:45 AM »

Is Zopi using small cell? Anybody who keeps bees in boxes is altering the natural state of the bee. Whether it is a Langstroth, topbar or Warre.

As for the rest of the conversation, I keep hearing people say that small cell or natural cell is only ONE variable in their beekeeping methods, which also include things such as not treating, not feeding sugar, etc. I am not hearing anyone say that small or natural cell alone is THE answer to mites (at least not in this thread).

Bjorn--how about you try the proposed methods in your own beeyard and see where it takes you? Or, have you already done so? No treatments, no sugar, natural or small-cell comb?
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kathyp
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« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2010, 12:03:08 PM »

i don't think we should confuse mite resistance with natural beekeeping.  i'm not even sure that there is A definition of natural beekeeping.  i'm probably pretty close to "natural" now, but do not hesitate to feed.  for that matter, i would consider treating with apiguard if i saw an explosion of mites and was in danger of losing all my hives. 

for a while, small cells was presented as the answer to mites, by many.  i don't think there are many reasonable beekeepers who would still hold that position.  small cell can not be considered natural.  as iddee pointed out, you are forcing bees to use a certain size cell regardless of what they might have built if left to their own.

there is nothing natural about keeping bees.  that might be the first concept that new beekeepers need to grasp.  while you might want to do things as close to natural as you can, it is not natural to keep them in something, look at them routinely, pull parts of the hive apart, take honey, etc.  it is also not natural to keep many hives in one area.

once you figure out that there is no such thing as "natural beekeeping" you can figure out just how un-natural you want to get........
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2010, 12:06:29 PM »

there is nothing natural about keeping bees.  that might be the first concept that new beekeepers need to grasp.  while you might want to do things as close to natural as you can, it is not natural to keep them in something, look at them routinely, pull parts of the hive apart, take honey, etc.  it is also not natural to keep many hives in one area.

once you figure out that there is no such thing as "natural beekeeping" you can figure out just how un-natural you want to get........
Exactly. For me, it means no foundation, no "treatments," hopefully eventually no feeding. I also had no mites last year, but I can't really get a good answer on how much "free time" a new package gets before mites begin to normally be a problem...
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kathyp
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« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2010, 12:11:00 PM »

mites come with brood.  by  next year, if not sooner, you will find mites.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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