Regressed queen

[Michael Bush]

>Well I guess you could ask the question, "What purpose does it serve to use any foundation"?

I ask that question a lot.

> You tell me.

None.  And a lot of down sides.

>  They make a lot of foundation material for beeks to purchase so there must be some advantage to it.

There is to the people selling it...
For years the two arguments were that they would raise less drones (debunked by Dr. Collison) and that they burn up 16 pounds (sometimes down to 8 pounds) of honey to make a pound of wax.  Which is basically irrelevant as they build the comb more slowly and time is the issue.  Drawn comb makes more honey, not because of the COST of wax but the TIME to make the comb.

http://bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm#expenseofwax

>I am suggesting mixing the sizes because that apparently is what the bees do when left on there own. 

So why not leave them to their own choices on building comb?

>Humans are all different sizes.  a colony is like a city.  Some people dig ditches, clean sewers, move furniture, answer the phone or just type.  Physical size may have something to do with occupations.

Exactly.

http://bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm
http://bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm#naturalsize
http://bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

My point is that you can get this result with no effort at all.  Making foundation with a variety of sizes would be a very expensive and labor intensive undertaking and it would still be unnatural.  Especially when you consider the bees will do this for you and make them in the exact proportions they are in need of at that moment in time.

[deknow]

I am not going to guess on the numbers.  It would just be a guess.

....my number is just a guess as well, but it's based on lots of online discussions (here and elswehere...here probably the least), having given beekeeping talks (and interacting with beekeepers) in several states, talking to hundreds and thousands of folks a week who come to farmers markets (some subset of whom are or have been beekeepers)...all the while taking into account that the people that tend to seek us out tend to be those of a "natural" bent.  i should also say that our book is the only mainstream beekeeping book that talks about (and encourages the use of) foundationless frames in Langstroth hives (not that this magically makes me know who is and who isn't using foundation, but it's obviously something i'm at least somewhat tuned into).

deknow

[Acebird]

and that they burn up 16 pounds (sometimes down to 8 pounds) of honey to make a pound of wax.  Which is basically irrelevant as they build the comb more slowly and time is the issue.  Drawn comb makes more honey, not because of the COST of wax but the TIME to make the comb.

I have heard this argument the other way so it would be good to have this statement prooven for the new beeks.

[Michael Bush]

"The opinion of experts once was that the production of beeswax in a colony required great quantities of nectar which, since it was turned into wax, would never be turned into honey. Until quite recently it was thought that bees could store seven pounds of honey for every pound of beeswax that they needed to manufacture for the construction of their combs--a figure which seems never to have been given any scientific basis, and which is in any case quite certainly wrong. The widespread view that if the combs were used over and over, through the use of the honey extractor, then the bees would be saved the trouble of building them and could convert the nectar thus saved into honey, was only minimally correct. A strong colony of bees will make almost as much comb honey as extracted honey on a strong honey flow. The advantage of the extractor, in increasing harvests, is that honey stored from minor flows, or gathered by the bees over many weeks of the summer, can easily be extracted, but comb honey cannot be easily produced under those conditions." --Richard Taylor, The Comb Honey Book

[Acebird]

 

a strong colony of bees will make almost as much comb honey as extracted honey on a strong honey flow.

My mind is not grasping the difference between extracted honey vs. comb honey.  How is the honey different?

[Michael Bush]

Taylor was writing about honey in the comb.  The principle is the same with extracted.  Comb honey is harvested comb and all and eaten comb and all.  His point, and my point, is that the gain with drawn comb is that the bees have somewhere to store even a short sudden flow.  Under these circumstances there is a very noticable difference between already drawn comb and when they have to draw it before they can store the nectar.  Otherwise the difference is difficult to dicern.

If you've ever eaten comb honey you'd taste the difference. It's like the differece between buying ground coffee and griding it fresh.

[VolunteerK9]

If you've ever eaten comb honey you'd taste the difference. It's like the differece between buying ground coffee and griding it fresh.

Cool analogy.

There IS a difference in taste. Its almost like an honey version of "Pop Rocks" when you chew the comb and the cells bust open in your mouth.

[Acebird]

His point, and my point, is that the gain with drawn comb is that the bees have somewhere to store even a short sudden flow.

 

I'm confused. 

Under these circumstances there is a very noticable difference between already drawn comb and when they have to draw it before they can store the nectar.

Isn't these two statements opposing arguments?

[Acebird]

There IS a difference in taste. Its almost like an honey version of "Pop Rocks" when you chew the comb and the cells bust open in your mouth.

I can see where comb honey would always have a fresher taste due to it being sealed in wax and not exposed to air.  It is kind of like pulling a carrot out of the ground, dusting it off and eating it within foot steps of where you pulled it out of the ground.  You are not going to match that taste in any market.

[Bee-Bop]

One thing not mentioned here is;

The wax producing gland is usable from age 5 days to age 10 days, {I would actually have to look it up}

Then if I remember correctly they become Foragers, before beeing wax producers, they were Nurse Bees.

Each segment of a bees life is controlled by nature, a Forger can regress back to being a Nurse, or wax producer in an emergency.

Some Bee Books are very worth while reading, providing they list references, not just opinions.

Bee-Bop

[rdy-b]

  i agree with Bee-BooP--well said-- RDY-B