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Author Topic: Blaming the previous administration  (Read 3153 times)
reinbeau
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« on: June 07, 2010, 03:12:46 PM »

Since Obama and all of his fans keep insisting he 'inherited a mess', I have to ask a question - doesn't that make 9/11 Clinton's fault? 
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2010, 03:17:30 PM »

If he had only OKed the air strike when he had osama in the gun scope.
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2010, 03:18:11 PM »

Given the decidedly absent nature of ANY Clinton anti-terror actions (Up to and including the TWA-800 cover-up, which was probably "friendly fire")...I'd say that would be a fairly easy point of view to support.
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2010, 03:20:55 PM »

If Carter had taken out Iran when he should have, we would not have any islamic radicals and 9/11 would not have happened.   So I blame Carter of 9/11.
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2010, 03:32:54 PM »

I would say  that who ever decided to crucify Ollie North for when he put in a security system at the governments ex pence to protect himself from "the most dangerous man alive" Osama Ben Laden instead of paying attention to what he was telling them, would be pretty responsible .
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2010, 03:35:19 PM »

If Carter had taken out Iran when he should have, we would not have any islamic radicals and 9/11 would not have happened.   So I blame Carter of 9/11.
And we would not now be facing a tantrum prone leader preparing for Armagedon with new nuclear toys. (Even if he has to start it in order to "win")
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2010, 03:44:01 PM »

we screwed up in a lot of places but i think the two big ones were carter/iran and clinton/uss cole.  UBL is more the spiritual leader of AQ and we needed to get the operational leaders.  i don't know that killing UBL would have really done much except momentarily disrupt finances.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2010, 07:10:08 PM »

Since Obama and all of his fans keep insisting he 'inherited a mess', I have to ask a question - doesn't that make 9/11 Clinton's fault? 
I read somewhere that Clinton specifically warned the incoming Bush administration about a guy named "Osama bin Laden." Course, that's just what I heard.
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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2010, 07:16:24 PM »

that is no doubt true.  the Clinton admin knew he was a problem.  that's why they had him targeted.  knowing that someone is a danger and knowing that planes are going to fly into your buildings are two different things.
we most certainly had opportunity to have better info under both admins, but there were many things that stood in the way of that info being collected and disseminated to anyone who could have made a difference.

Clinton had the chance to take him out and didn't.  i can't even really fault him for that because it sure would have brought down a firestorm. unfortunately, we can't make those decisions with hindsight.  where Clinton messed up was not flattening large parts of many places after the USS Cole.  it was among the things that UBL pointed to as showing our weakness.  

they should also have handled the 1st WTC bombing as a terrorist attack. if they had done that, they might have looked at the risk in a different way and done more.  treating it as a law enforcement problem limited the intel and actions.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2010, 10:50:38 PM »

that is no doubt true.  the Clinton admin knew he was a problem.  that's why they had him targeted.  knowing that someone is a danger and knowing that planes are going to fly into your buildings are two different things.
we most certainly had opportunity to have better info under both admins, but there were many things that stood in the way of that info being collected and disseminated to anyone who could have made a difference.

Clinton had the chance to take him out and didn't.  i can't even really fault him for that because it sure would have brought down a firestorm. unfortunately, we can't make those decisions with hindsight.  where Clinton messed up was not flattening large parts of many places after the USS Cole.  it was among the things that UBL pointed to as showing our weakness.  

they should also have handled the 1st WTC bombing as a terrorist attack. if they had done that, they might have looked at the risk in a different way and done more.  treating it as a law enforcement problem limited the intel and actions.

Ok Kathy.
  Your freaking me out!  Thats the most consice rational thing I have seen you post!   grin

Just kidding    huggggggsssss
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2010, 11:21:17 PM »

I think any president can make the case that they inherited their problems, but they never seem to want to give that benefit to the one they are running against...
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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2010, 11:23:45 PM »

Quote
Thats the most consice rational thing I have seen you post

wow.  maybe the fog lifted momentarily.  yikes, maybe i'm getting soft in my old age........
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2010, 11:29:47 PM »

theres nothing wrong with a soft woman... grin  nor getting older.... wine and mead being a few of the lesser things that get better with age.
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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2010, 01:54:18 AM »

And speaking of inheriting problems could you also say that the housing bubble was the fault of the lax lending regulations set up by the prior administration.

Keith
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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2010, 09:30:03 AM »

if the chosen one did not understand the situation he should not have run for office.   he would apply for a job at a car wash and upon being hired complain about getting wet.   this administration is pure genius at campaigning but rank amatures when it comes to executive experience.    i don't care  what he was doing on "day one" , how "angry" he is, whether his "boot is on the throat of BP",  or what he feels about dividend distribution.
his job was to protect the coastline of this country and sort out the blame later.   eighteen months later he still blames his predecessor so i wonder how long he'll ride this mule.  hopefully, not further than 2012.
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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2010, 09:32:22 AM »

And speaking of inheriting problems could you also say that the housing bubble was the fault of the lax lending regulations set up by the prior administration.

Keith
Those regulations were set up by Carter, and made worse by Clinton, all in the name of "Improving" the inner cities.
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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2010, 11:40:44 AM »

obama did inherit a mess...but he's done nothing to better it and economically has made it worse.  his foreign policy is only slightly different than bush's and he won a Nobel Peace Prize.....huh? 

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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2010, 11:49:15 AM »

every president inherits a mess...whether they really do or not. that's how they get elected.  they are going to fix the mess of the previous admin.   what i don't ever remember is any president whining about the past as this one does.  it's constant.  it's like a little kid "it's not my fault, he did it" over and over. 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2010, 12:34:22 PM »

every president inherits a mess...whether they really do or not. that's how they get elected.  they are going to fix the mess of the previous admin.   what i don't ever remember is any president whining about the past as this one does.  it's constant.  it's like a little kid "it's not my fault, he did it" over and over. 


Is Obama whining about it? Or just his supporters? I would say that 2 wars and a recession are a bit more baggage than some presidents have had to take on, though.
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« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2010, 01:38:18 PM »

Is Obama whining about it? Or just his supporters? I would say that 2 wars and a recession are a bit more baggage than some presidents have had to take on, though.
Well yes, though his supporters are doing it more loudly. Wars? You people are still calling thse things wars? They aren't really active enough to even be considered police actions. We really haven't declared war since...What? WWII? And we suffered more casualties in single battles in Korea than both fronts have generated in total. And the "recession" was caused by the party in control of Congress - which is where the purse strings end. Last time we had a Republican majority Congress, there was a surplus of sorts...Even WITH A Dem in office.
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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2010, 01:47:29 PM »

"You people"?  Smiley

Maybe it's the price tag that makes me think of it as a war. What would you call it, if not war?
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« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2010, 02:01:46 PM »

i believe this falls under the heading of asymmetrical warfare, not to be confused with a declared war.  consider the cold war:  it was expensive, many people died, most people had no clue what was going on.  many argued that it was not worthwhile.  the enemy was not so different.  they were political zealots rather than religious zealots.  what would the world look like if we hadn't worked to bring the USSR down?  who knows.  that's like asking what the world would be like if Hitler hadn't lived.

we can only do what we do, and try to do it for the right reasons. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2010, 03:37:13 PM »

Maybe it's the price tag that makes me think of it as a war. What would you call it, if not war?
Price tag? The only price tag I'm interested in is the cost in lives, and illegal immigration is costing us, in our major cities at home, more than Iraq and Afghanistan combined. But I haven't heard near the outcry from the left on those fronts. And that's an outright invasion of our home soil. The middle east is "just" a necessary action to keep the emerging "modern" culture from going crazy with their new nuclear toys. We have to have a presence in that arena in order to insure that we can maintain a healthy non radioactive environment at home. If we can keep Washington DC from selling it out from under us in the meantime is the question.
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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2010, 03:45:33 PM »

I am not arguing for or against the war. This was a discussion about what Obama has or not inherited as problems. I mentioned the conflicts in Agh/Iraq. You were arguing about my choice of the word "war." I am not arguing about the conflicts themselves...
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« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2010, 05:47:30 PM »

You have to remember its always to blame, than it is to come up with the solutions.  Since Obama doesn't or can't come up with solutions then he has decided to play the blame game.  I forgot to mention that it's better to blame someone else so the transformation to a communist state it easier, comrade. evil
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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2010, 06:13:55 PM »

it is fair to say the obama inherited problems.  what he did not inherit, is a crisis.  TARP, for better or worse, had been passed to stabilize the banking system.  that was the biggest risk to everyone.  he turned the recession into a crisis.  why?  because if you want to convince people to accept things they otherwise would not, you have to convince them that there is a crisis.  

Truman inherited a WW and a depression.  Because FDR was pretty much a dictator, he had kept Truman out of the loop on defense and everything else.  he didn't even know that a nuc was available to him.  he had to take office and learn everything on the fly.  

Harding inherited a mess.  Coolidge got it from him when harding died.  

Bush inherited a recession and then 9/11 happened.  he could have complained that the attack was the fault of the Clinton admin and their intel mess,and then the lack of response to prior attacks.  

at some point, a president has to show leadership.  it is not leadership to constantly fuss about how he inherited a mess, and how it's all the other guys fault.

there are two kinds of leaders.  the first is born.  they are pretty rare.  the second learns leadership.  they learn by doing and they learn by rising to the challenge of a (real) crisis. obama has had no experience with leadership.  it shows.  he's a great cheerleader for the left, but being a cheerleader is not the same as being a leader.


if you are a socialist, your first impulse is to take over companies and to do things like dictate salaries.  you believe that every problem can, and should be, taken care of by the government. you vilify the private sector and proceed to do your best to destroy it. a thriving private sector and middle class are an impediment to socialism.    these are the type of things we expect from Hugo, not from our president.  the one lesson that he has learned from the people who taught him, is that it's far easier to be a dictator than to be a leader.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2010, 07:18:33 PM »

Kathy,

I agree with what you have said regarding leadership and Obama.  As someone who voted for him, I am deeply disappointed.  I thought that he would be more like Clinton in terms of being pragmatic; however he seems to not have very good "real world" instincts.

As for you point about the current recession/crisis, I disagree with you a bit.  You said:
Quote
TARP, for better or worse, had been passed to stabilize the banking system.  that was the biggest risk to everyone.  he turned the recession into a crisis.  why?  because if you want to convince people to accept things they otherwise would not, you have to convince them that there is a crisis. 

I believe TARP (as implemented, not as it was initially explained), did almost zero to "stabilize" the banking system.  We still have all of that crap on the balance sheets of the banks, and now, thanks to the removal of mark-to-market accounting, we can pretend that things are better.   What did help was the guarantee on money market funds and maybe the TALF as implemented by the federal reserve.   Now that the homebuyer tax credit has expired and the ill-conceived simulus money is running out, we will get a better picture of our true situation.  We do have a crisis in the sense that we have done nothing to fix our structural problems and things are going to get worse as a result.

...Tim
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« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2010, 07:42:46 PM »

i'll give you that.  i think the next year or so is going to be a very rough ride.

there were a lot of decisions made by Clinton that i didn't like, but i don't ever remember questioning his ability to make decisions.  maybe that's why governors usually make better presidents than senators.  governors at least have the experience of leading a state!   Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2010, 08:45:01 PM »

And speaking of inheriting problems could you also say that the housing bubble was the fault of the lax lending regulations set up by the prior administration.

Keith
Those regulations were set up by Carter, and made worse by Clinton, all in the name of "Improving" the inner cities.

I should havebeen clear. All the housing boom was dropped in Bush's lap as if it was his fault
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« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2010, 08:50:17 PM »

Is Obama whining about it? Or just his supporters? I would say that 2 wars and a recession are a bit more baggage than some presidents have had to take on, though.
Well yes, though his supporters are doing it more loudly. Wars? You people are still calling thse things wars? They aren't really active enough to even be considered police actions. We really haven't declared war since...What? WWII? And we suffered more casualties in single battles in Korea than both fronts have generated in total. And the "recession" was caused by the party in control of Congress - which is where the purse strings end. Last time we had a Republican majority Congress, there was a surplus of sorts...Even WITH a Dem in office.

Yeap the war in Iraq is over I can vouch for that I have had more soldiers hurt by playing sports and working out at the gym than from the hands of any Iraqi stick a fork in this thing its done

Keith
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« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2010, 08:51:20 PM »

republicrats and demolicans, they are both sides of the same crooked coin.

Neither one has been an honest representative of the people they have been elected to represent.  One wants money, the other wants control, both are in it for the party platform and what the people actually want isn't given a second thought.

I personally blame every president for their role in continuing a system of corruption, backroom deals, political arm bending.

I blame every senator and congressperson for their roles in the same ways.

 I do not ( speaking for myself) want to elect a party or a party hack.  Please let's find someone with their own mind, their own sense of integrity and responsibility to the people. not a party.

Neither of the two parties has clean hands.  if you want to argue over who has dirtier hands than the other, well,  I guess determining who is more of a criminal isn't all that important to me when  I want people who aren't criminals at all.

there were aspects of Bill Clinton I liked, and others where I thought he was full of ...it.

There were aspects of Bush 2 I liked, and there were others I thought he was full of...it.

 I honestly can say there is nothing about Obama I like, I think he is completely full of ...it and I think (again, just my two cents) he is nothing more than a  party puppet.

OK, all my cents are spent.  please let the party hack bickering continue.

Big Bear
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« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2010, 09:27:19 PM »

I blame all of them, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush Jr., And Obama along with every member of Congress for the one fact that my 3 year old son is now some $40,000.00 in debt.   Can you imagine what that figure will be when he gets out of school and has to find a job?   I think that the all mighty dollar might not be worth a thing.   
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« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2010, 11:12:31 PM »

Don't worry about that 40,000. By the time he's 30, he'll be making that per hour. Of course, it might not buy a gallon of gas.
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« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2010, 10:51:32 AM »

republicrats and demolicans, they are both sides of the same crooked coin.

Big Bear
I pretty much agree. I'm all for putting "None of the Above is acceptable" on the ballot against the both of them and force a runoff among the independents ONLY. No D's or R's need apply. It's time "We the People" took our government back from the political machines that only care about election wins and vote tallies instead of what those actions mean to this country and it's ultimate survival or demise. Support the Constitution - as written - or get out.
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« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2010, 10:56:31 AM »

I am not arguing for or against the war. This was a discussion about what Obama has or not inherited as problems. I mentioned the conflicts in Agh/Iraq. You were arguing about my choice of the word "war." I am not arguing about the conflicts themselves...
Point of fact is that the US has not been in a declared war since WWII. But as conflicts go, none of the recent middle east conflicts have resulted in near the costs that even single battles of previous actions brought.
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« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2010, 11:01:47 AM »

thought you guys might like this if you have not seen it.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2010, 12:16:58 PM »


Some Further Words

by Wendell Berry.
Let me be plain with you, dear reader.
I am an old-fashioned man. I like
the world of nature despite its mortal
dangers. I like the domestic world
of humans, so long as it pays its debts
to the natural world, and keeps its bounds.
I like the promise of Heaven. My purpose
is a language that can repay just thanks
and honor for those gifts, a tongue
set free from fashionable lies.
Neither this world nor any of its places
is an "environment." And a house
for sale is not a "home." Economics
is not "science," nor "information" knowledge.
A knave with a degree is a knave. A fool
in a public office is not a "leader."
A rich thief is a thief. And the ghost
of Arthur Moore, who taught me Chaucer,
returns in the night to say again:
"Let me tell you something, boy.
An intellectual bleep is a bleep."
The world is babbled to pieces after
the divorce of things from their names.
Ceaseless preparation for war
is not peace. Health is not procured
by sale of medication, or purity
by the addition of poison. Science
at the bidding of the corporations
is knowledge reduced to merchandise;
it is a whoredom of the mind,
and so is the art that calls this "progress."
So is the cowardice that calls it "inevitable."
I think the issues of "identity" mostly
are poppycock. We are what we have done,
which includes our promises, includes
our hopes, but promises first. I know
a "fetus" is a human child.
I loved my children from the time
they were conceived, having loved
their mother, who loved them
from the time they were conceived
and before. Who are we to say
the world did not begin in love?
I would like to die in love as I was born,
and as myself of life impoverished go
into the love all flesh begins
and ends in. I don't like machines,
which are neither mortal nor immortal,
though I am constrained to use them.
(Thus the age perfects its clench.)
Some day they will be gone, and that
will be a glad and a holy day.
I mean the dire machines that run
by burning the world's body and
its breath. When I see an airplane
fuming through the once-pure sky
or a vehicle of the outer space
with its little inner space
imitating a star at night, I say,
"Get out of there!" as I would speak
to a fox or a thief in the henhouse.
When I hear the stock market has fallen,
I say, "Long live gravity! Long live
stupidity, error, and greed in the palaces
of fantasy capitalism!" I think
an economy should be based on thrift,
on taking care of things, not on theft,
usury, seduction, waste, and ruin.
My purpose is a language that can make us whole,
though mortal, ignorant, and small.
The world is whole beyond human knowing.
The body's life is its own, untouched
by the little clockwork of explanation.
I approve of death, when it comes in time
to the old. I don't want to five
on mortal terms forever, or survive
an hour as a cooling stew of pieces
of other people. I don't believe that life
or knowledge can be given by machines.
The machine economy has set afire
the household of the human soul,
and all the creatures are burning within it
"Intellectual property" names
the deed by which the mind is bought
and sold, the world enslaved. We
who do not own ourselves, being free,
own by theft what belongs to God,
to the living world, and equally
to us all. Or how can we own a part
of what we only can possess
entirely? Life is a gift we have
only by giving it back again.
Let us agree: "the laborer is worthy
of his hire," but he cannot own what he knows,
which must be freely told, or labor
dies with the laborer. The farmer
is worthy of the harvest made
in time, but he must leave the light
by which he planted, grew, and reaped,
the seed immortal in mortality,
freely to the time to come. The land
too he keeps by giving it up,
as the thinker receives and gives a thought,
as the singer sings in the common air.
I don't believe that "scientific genius"
in its naive assertions of power
is equal either to nature or
to human culture. Its thoughtless invasions
of the nuclei of atoms and cells
and this world's every habitation
have not brought us to the light
but sent us wandering farther through
the dark. Nor do I believe
.artistic genius" is the possession
of any artist. No one has made
the art by which one makes the works
of art. Each one who speaks speaks
as a convocation. We live as councils
of ghosts. It is not "human genius"
that makes us human, but an old love,
an old intelligence of the heart
we gather to us from the world,
from the creatures, from the angels
of inspiration, from the dead--
an intelligence merely nonexistent
to those who do not have it, but --
to those who have it more dear than life.
And just as tenderly to be known
are the affections that make a woman and a man
their household and their homeland one.
These too, though known, cannot be told
to those who do not know them, and fewer
of us learn them, year by year.
These affections are leaving the world
like the colors of extinct birds,
like the songs of a dead language.
Think of the genius of the animals,
every one truly what it is:
gnat, fox, minnow, swallow, each made
of light and luminous within itself.
They know (better than we do) how
to live in the places where they live.
And so I would like to be a true
human being, dear reader-a choice
not altogether possible now.
But this is what I'm for, the side
I'm on. And this is what you should
expect of me, as I expect it of
myself, though for realization we
may wait a thousand or a million years.

May-August, 2001
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"Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito"
AllenF
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« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2010, 12:18:43 PM »

That's a cool page Kathy.
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