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Author Topic: honey and president obama  (Read 6384 times)
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« Reply #60 on: June 08, 2010, 04:53:19 AM »

When the federal government spends dollars,it removes money available for the private sector to spend. When money is in short supply,interest rates to borrow goes up.
When business is forced to pay higher rates,it only translates into higher costs. These costs are passed on,which is not a great way to stimulate a sagging economy. If you can sell something for two dollars,making that item two dollars and 20 cents is not going to help it sell better and provide a job.

With all due respect buzzbee, and I truly mean with respect, I have a very hard time sitting back while the general public makes this miss-assumption that you have just stated in your first sentence.

This is because our government does tend to remove money available for the private sector, it tends to borrow money from the federal reserve, that does not exist, that it does not need to borrow, that it can print it self, that it does not need to burden the public with in the form of income taxes, that it does not need to pay back to the filthy rich at the expense of the poor enslaved citizens of this county who labor away only to realize a fraction of there labor turn into real assets, so the federal reserve and there private corporate owners who are not audited, who do not pay taxes like any other corporation, who decide what our interest rates will be, decide how much money will circulate, and so on.  This is the biggest scam that ever has existed in this country and is completely unnecessary.  What I have stated above is the total truth and can be easily proven.

If Obama is so great and cares so much for the people of this country, for the abused, for the minorities, for heath care, for the future and prosperity of this county than lets see him finish President John F.Kennedy's legacy and enforce Kennedy's Executive Order 11110.  Lets see him do that if he is so great and wonderful all knowing and caring for the people of this country's welfare.  The truth is he is just like any other political puppet and will do nothing but talk the talk, and say what all the idiots want to hear so he and his crew can stay in power, and achieve their hidden agendas.  No more than that will come of him.
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Ollie
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« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2010, 07:53:47 AM »

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB80/new/doc%2019/Update%2027%20January%202003.htm

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB80/new/doc%2020/The%20Status%20of%20Nuclear%20Inspections%20in%20Iraq.htm

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html

http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/1998/11/01/981101-in.htm

The Secret History of the Iraq War
Yossef Bodansky

the first two are the last straw reports from the UN inspectors.  if Iraq had cooperated with inspectors there would have been no war.  since they had acted in defiance of the cease war agreement of '91, going back in (like it or not) was completely justified.



The first one is a report by someone delineating the refusal of a sovereign country not to accept verifications,
Maybe we ought to go to war with China, North Korea, Iran and Venezuela, based on your thought that we had every right to invade that country, we have every right to invades those listed too.

The second one:

Here is the reprint of the conclusion:
"Conclusion

To conclude: we have to date found no evidence that Iraq has revived its nuclear weapons programme since the elimination of the programme in the 1990s. However, our work is steadily progressing and should be allowed to run its natural course. With our verification system now in place, barring exceptional circumstances, and provided there is sustained proactive cooperation by Iraq, we should be able within the next few months to provide credible assurance that Iraq has no nuclear weapons programme. These few months would be a valuable investment in peace because they could help us avoid a war. We trust that we will continue to have your support as we make every effort to verify Iraq's nuclear disarmament through peaceful means, and to demonstrate that the inspection process can and does work, as a central feature of the international nuclear arms control regime."

Not exactly ammunition you can use to prove your point. neither states that info to justify a war would have come from France or mentioning the forged document obtained in Germany used by the white house to justify a war with Iraq.


Quote
the next is the '98 speech by Clinton about the WMD threat from Iraq
next, the change of regime policy that Clinton instated.


The relevant paragraph is :
"I decided then to call off the attack with our airplanes already in the air because Saddam had given in to our demands. I concluded then that the right thing to do was to use restraint and give Saddam one last chance to prove his willingness to cooperate."

Not exactly backing up your claims...

C'mon, you can do better.
On your 4rth link, it is a report of Clinton signing the Iraq liberation act, again thgis doesn't support any of your claims.

Quote
last is a very good book that references the Intel before the war.  it is well sourced so you can double check the info for yourself.


The book, I haven't read, so I'll leave it alone. Who's the author?


Quote
that's a bit of a start for you.  there are many, many more UN docs that go through the Clinton years.  there's plenty of history about the Oil For Food program and money laundering. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/60minutes/main3749494.shtml this is interesting and we know that the sanctions against Iraq were close to being lifted.  this was being facilitated by our good friends the French and Russians, both of whom were selling Saddam prohibited items and laundering money for him in exchange for oil.


In this last link an interview with George Piro, the guy in charge of interrogating Saddam, no mention of French involvement or money laundering but a good explanation of why Saddam was taunting his WMD program, though destroyed in the early 90's.

Quote
Intel is not a thing.  it is many, many, bits that are put together to paint a picture.  it is not prophetic.  it is not definitive.  it is almost always a best guess based on what you know and what you think.


I agree with that statement excepted the "what you know" part ought to be replaced with "what is known" and leave out the "what you think", but replace it with "what is verified."

I have to go to work now, again nothing personal, just a discussion...

Oliver
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« Reply #62 on: June 08, 2010, 09:26:31 AM »

I don't know what you guys want from Obama.

a birth certificate.  I want him to show respect for the constitution which needs to be upheld with no exceptions not matter how good of a person he is, what he has accomplished, what he believes, can do, .............   Until then all else is not relevant, until he pars up and proves he is legally in in office like any other law abiding citizen who does not hide behind racial bias or other cheap tricks. 
Some explanation about how he went to a foreign school, that did not accept dual citizenship, without renouncing his American citizenship. And STILL thinks he qualifies for the office. The attitude that "It doesn't matter anymore" ESPECIALLY if true - is unacceptable.
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kathyp
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« Reply #63 on: June 08, 2010, 10:03:25 AM »

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The first one is a report by someone delineating the refusal of a sovereign country not to accept verifications,

well, i tried.  i can not go back and give you a complete history lesson on iraq, inspections, etc.  i can  not go back and introduce you to the (very long time ) UN players and the cease fire  IRAQ AGREED TO which included inspections.

you have chosen to be ignorant.  i do not use that word as a derogatory description.  it is the most accurate thing i can think of to say.

that one sentence that i have quoted from you is just appalling to me.  and very sad.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #64 on: June 08, 2010, 11:15:01 PM »

If this is the only problem you have despite  everything else that was pointed out in my previous post, then I feel totally validated.

All countries are sovereign, whether friends or foes.

What they do, is their choice and to some degree, their rights whether we like it or not. Just as what we do affects the world behind our borders. And some don't like it just as we don't like some others.
Yes, some, even most, agree to do some thing and then do something totally different. N. Korea, China, Pakistan, Russia to name a few...
But if we push the time lines back, we will also see that we, the US was a big part of getting Saddam in power.
The dictator in Iran that was replaced by the zealots during the Carter years and leading to the present mess in that country, was also US backed dictator. (not the zealots, they go under their banner of heaven, I guess Bush went under his...)
Anyway I don't need you to give me a history lesson, I do know quite a bit, after all,  i try to understand, research, read and get my news from a variety of sources, some good, some bad; Some US based, some foreign, the bad ones I tend to leave behind and stop trusting, relying on, or believe anything they have to say, such as Fox, but I would not risk making a statement that I could not defend and more to the point support with facts.
You have failed to discredit my sources, I have not discredited yours, in the links that you put up to support your views, I simply read the material and determined that the content of those pages did nothing to support a single one of your claims.

In a previous post you had said that you were the target of insults, call someone ignorant because you can't prove them wrong is still an insult even if you say that it is not.

 

So let's agree to disagree
and leave it at that.
This was most entertaining.
Thank you so much Kathy have a great day.

Note to the Moderator:

 Thank you for weighing your decision to censure.
And thank you for re-establishing the whole thread.
Free speech is so crucial to democracy.

Oliver




 
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kathyp
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« Reply #65 on: June 09, 2010, 12:12:26 AM »

Quote
Thank you for weighing your decision to censure.
And thank you for re-establishing the whole thread.
Free speech is so crucial to democracy.

it was never removed.  it should be pointed out the beemaster has no obligation to provide a forum for free speech.  our freedom to speak openly is only a protection FROM the government, not from a forum.

i chose to quote that sentence from your post because it is the reason that "debate" with you is pointless.  you have no knowledge of the history of the subject and do not recognize the players when their work is pointed out to you.  with no basis for debate, no debate can be had.  in order for a continued conversation worth anyones time, both parties would have to be informed. 

Quote
call someone ignorant because you can't prove them wrong is still an insult even if you say that it is not

being called ignorant of facts is not an insult.  it should be taken as an invitation to learn.  if you don't recognize something as simple as UN inspection reports and refer to the well know author(s) as "someone", i don't feel that i should have to waste my time teaching you things you should already know.  if you want to become informed, all info is out there.  people can look at info and reach different conclusions.  no one has the right to reach and preach a conclusion before looking at all info.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #66 on: June 09, 2010, 06:31:02 AM »


Note to the Moderator:

 Thank you for weighing your decision to censure.
And thank you for re-establishing the whole thread.
Free speech is so crucial to democracy.

Oliver
 

Oliver, as was told to you in the other post, there were two - the duplicate has now been deleted.  No one moderated, nor censored, anything, other than to remove a duplicate post.
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buzzbee
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« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2010, 06:30:37 PM »

Quote:

 Thank you for weighing your decision to censure.
And thank you for re-establishing the whole thread.
Free speech is so crucial to democracy.

Oliver



I do not understand how moving this thread from the beekeeping forum to the coffee house where it belongs waays in as censorship. I was not involved with this conversation other than to congratulate Bruce on meeting the President.This is not a thread involved with beekeeping,and the coffee house is the most appropriate place for this conversation.
The thread was never pulled,never edited,and a forwarding link was provided. far from an act of censorship. If bad language or personal attacks occur,then you may see "censorship". It is not tolerated here.
So where ever this thread goes,don't post anything you would not feel comfortable showing your young children or your grandmother. Keep it civil and we can keep this going as long as needed.

Oh,and the Beemaster forum is not a democracy.The members do not vote on how things are handled. The forum is executed to the wishes of Beemaster. The mods have leeway on how to handle situations,but the final arbiter is John himself.
Keep it clean and respectable and there will never be "censure".
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SurprisingWoman
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« Reply #68 on: June 10, 2010, 12:19:43 AM »

Goodness gracious.  I had no idea this thread was going to explode the way it has while I was away from the board.

I have not had a chance to read all of the posts but there are soooo many little snippets that made me want to stop immediately and look up a rebuttal.  There is sooo much ignorance out there.  The fact that "birthers" are on this thread doesn't surprise me but it also tells me the ability of some to assimilate information.  Sad

I will be back.  Spring is a busy time of year and I didn't realize what a firestorm I would be setting off... although in hindsight I should have.

In the meantime check out a site which will answer a lot of your questions with a non bias.  http://www.politifact.com/
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« Reply #69 on: June 10, 2010, 12:51:34 AM »

there is indeed a lot of ignorance  evil

wonder what questions we need answered?

i don't consider myself a birther.  there is a whole long conversation on here somewhere about that.  i do think that once the question was asked (by the Hilary camp) it would have been smart for Obama to have put it to rest.  the only way to do that is to release the long form certificate.  not doing so does him more harm than good and leads to the logical question "why won't he?".

guess i found my question!!

i look forward to your answers.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #70 on: June 10, 2010, 07:09:58 AM »

SurprisingWoman, our opinions are what you're calling ignorance - and we can think the same of your opinions.  We all can come up with 'facts' and 'proof' of why we feel the way we do.  Have a discussion, don't call people ignorant.  That's the sign of a very closed mind.
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« Reply #71 on: June 10, 2010, 05:42:12 PM »

I'm getting confused. Calling someone ignorant is an "invitation to learn" or "the sign of a closed mind."
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« Reply #72 on: June 10, 2010, 06:03:47 PM »

depends.  i don't like the color pink.  that is my opinion.  if you say i'm ignorant because i don't like the color pink, that's kind of insulting. 

there are lots of things i don't know about beekeeping.  if you point out that i am ignorant of certain facts about beekeeping, i would consider that an invitation to learn. 

Ollie based his argument on opinion but not on facts.  in that case, he was ignorant.  not because of his opinion, but because he didn't know the facts.  he might learn the facts and maintain the same opinion.  i don't know.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #73 on: June 10, 2010, 06:08:23 PM »

Now there's something we can agree on---pink is revolting, and that's a fact!  grin
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« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2010, 10:39:20 AM »

Now there's something we can agree on---pink is revolting, and that's a fact!  grin

Oh I don't know...I sort of liked Get The Party Started
P!nk - Get The Party Started
pink elephant lau
But not so much after that.
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iddee
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« Reply #75 on: June 11, 2010, 01:20:53 PM »

I would have to be seeing a lot of pink elephants before I could watch something like that.
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