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Author Topic: honey and president obama  (Read 6595 times)
AllenF
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« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2010, 01:28:39 PM »

That really makes me wonder just how many times my dead grandparents voted this last election.
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« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2010, 02:00:58 PM »



recessions are common. they are a part of the normal economic cycle.  how they are handled makes the difference in how long and deep they are.  we have examples in recent history of how to handle them and how not to handle them.  FDR is a good example of how not to handle them.  Obama is following the FDR model.
I must be a lot older than you, because I remember many recessions, and none in my lifetime have been as bad as this one was... before Obama took office.  This actually is world-wide recession on top of a collapse in credit and financial markets around the world.  In that sense, we have seen nothing like this since the 1930s.  
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two wars:  not really.  it's one war with two fronts.  not to minimize the lives and expense of this war, but in the grand scheme of things, they are pretty small adventures.  in addition, Obama has chosen to expand our involvement in Afghanistan.  we have no interest in Afghanistan.  the taliban is no threat to us except to the extent that they support terrorist organizations.  their ability to support terrorist organizations can be handled as it is being handled in Pakistan with bombs and special forces.  burning the poppy fields would help also.  Iraq was the right place to accomplish the goal of degrading AQ and it was successful.  everything else that needs to be done can be done with intel and assassinations.  
Wow, there are a lot of points in there.   grin  I agree that these are low intensity fights... probably wouldn't be called wars expect that using the language of war makes it harder for people to express dissent... as you just did.  Good for you.  I pretty much agree with the rest of what you said except the idea that Iraq was the right place to degrade AQ.  There was no real AQ activity in Iraq until we invaded, supposedly to look for WMD but really for oil,  We recruited AQ members in Iraq faster than we could kill them.  What a waste of lives, money and time.
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the huge growth of debt and deficit and the huge growth of government is unsustainable.  this would include, but is not limited to, the take over of the health care system.  
I'm not sure that government has grown on a per capita basis, but the debt has and yes... that is unsustainable.   First we have to get out of collapse mode.  Then there will be spending cuts and tax increases to end the growth of debt.  At some point, a country has to live within its means.  But as for health care, the growth in health care expenses is also unsustainable.  It is a major contributor to the deficit since about 1/3 of health care is already at taxpayer's expense.  What has been missing is a mechanism to stop the price increases of health insurance and prescription drugs.   a public option would have provided that mechanism.  I don't think the current law will work but it is a first step.
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« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2010, 02:24:59 PM »

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I must be a lot older than you, because I remember many recessions, and none in my lifetime have been as bad as this one was... before Obama took office.  This actually is world-wide recession on top of a collapse in credit and financial markets around the world.  In that sense, we have seen nothing like this since the 1930s.  


did you miss the carter years?  far worse in most way than this.


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There was no real AQ activity in Iraq until we invaded, supposedly to look for WMD but really for oil,  We recruited AQ members in Iraq faster than we could kill them.  What a waste of lives, money and time
.

this is the very reason that iraq was the right place to fight.  if you are at all familiar with the history, weather, and terrain of Afghanistan, you understand that drawing AQ into a place that is more favorable to us, was brilliant.  it was either a brilliant mistake, or a brilliant plan.  every read Sun Tzu?   Smiley

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First we have to get out of collapse mode

you don't get out of collapse mode by growing government and government spending.  because the government produces and earns nothing, it can only grow and spend by taking from the private sector.  if you do not grow the private sector, you eventually end up with more economic collapse....see Greece, Spain, etc.

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What has been missing is a mechanism to stop the price increases of health insurance and prescription drugs.   a public option would have provided that mechanism.  I don't think the current law will work but it is a first step.

right idea, wrong solution.  again, see Europe.  the reasons our health care cost so much are 1. we expect the very best and latest in care and that's expensive. 2. we expect someone else to pay for it.  why, for example, are you paying for my mammogram and i pay for your prostate exam?  why is insurance paying for any routine care?  insurance drives up cost and limits choice.  you must take your kids for shots to the place that is covered by your insurance.  the market is removed from  your choice.  not only can you not shop for the best price, but because a 3rd party pays for the shots, there is no negotiation in the cost of the immunization.  both the care and the immunization then cost more.  

government health care both drives up cost and limits choice.  it is not a solution.  if you ended up with a system like England (which is broke) not only would your access be limited, but so would your choice of treatments.  as costs rise, so do limits.  we don't need to guess at the outcome.  we have plenty of examples of countries scrambling to try to bring their social welfare programs back to the private sector.  not one of those countries have tried to cover 300 million people....unless you count India, and i don't think anyone is flocking to India for health care.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2010, 03:25:55 PM »

BTW...your lights are probably kept on by coal....the other evil energy source  grin
It's only really evil because of the cinnabar in the coal...(Mercury ore) -which is why you can't eat the fish you catch in many places.
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« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2010, 03:30:33 PM »


I have done a ton of research and I am a TOTAL Obama fan.
Then it's clear you haven't done enough research.

You can be glad I am excited but you realize November is not an election year for OUR President, right?  
But it IS an election year for the Check and Balance needed to keep him in check...Though it's probably already too late to avoid a total economic collapse from the bone headed crap already passed. You think this last recession was bad? Remember when the Dot Com bubble burst---Well the Obama/Dem bubble that most are calling a recovery will be several orders of magnitude worse.
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« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2010, 03:41:15 PM »

i think gold is going to go along with the stock market.  if anyone starts selling off the dollar, or they do a new international currency, we can expect our economy to tank.  depending on what they do, we are either looking at inflation, or deflation, and neither are very appealing.....to us, or those who hold our debt.  i think there i no way out except to really make some draconian changes, and those will not come with this admin.

it's going to be a rough ride.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2010, 04:01:49 PM »


did you miss the carter years?  far worse in most way than this.
No, didn't miss that.  Under Carter there was stagflation,  not recession. But the disaster came in late 1982, when Reagan had been in office for more than a year.  It was caused by the Fed raising interest rates.  But that was not as bad a recession as this one.  Yes, In 1982, I saw soup lines and my wife was unemployed.  But the difference today is that there are many Federal and State support programs that did not exist then.  Ironically, it is the "growth of government"... which you oppose... that has made this recession seem, to your eyes at least, as less severe.

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this is the very reason that iraq was the right place to fight.  if you are at all familiar with the history, weather, and terrain of Afghanistan, you understand that drawing AQ into a place that is more favorable to us, was brilliant.  it was either a brilliant mistake, or a brilliant plan.  every read Sun Tzu?   Smiley
Except that we didn't draw AQ in from somewhere else... at least not many of them.  Almost all of those called AQ in Iraq were Iraqis, mostly Sunnis.  We recruited those fighters for AQ by invading and setting up the Shia as the power in government.  

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you don't get out of collapse mode by growing government and government spending.
Government spending is the only way to get out of collapse.  By definition, collapse is when the private sector will not/ can not invest in new production or new hiring.  But you have a point.  The government spending should be cut (and taxes raised) when the economy is roaring.  That allows spending and tax cuts in hard times. What I am describing is probably the major function of government in the economy.


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 why, for example, are you paying for my mammogram and i pay for your prostate exam?
Getting a little personal here aren't we.  grin  But the reason I am willing to pay for your mammogram when you need it is that you may not be able to afford it at that moment.  Too many women without insurance don't get mammograms and end up dying for no good reason.

You are claiming that the free market will take care of health care.  It's just not the case.  There is no free market in health care and can't be... for some of the reason you have just enumerated yourself.  When you compare to Europe, remember that the US spends twice as much per capita as those "socialized medicine" countries with no better health outcomes.

Ok Kathyp, it's time for you to cough it up.  Who do YOU support for President?  Who can be elected and give you what you want in government?  


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« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2010, 04:02:59 PM »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/27/americans-outsourcing-hea_n_245310.html

Once again thinking is not knowing...
Convictions are not truth...

I didn't have time to go point by point but I'm pretty sure that the federal gov. grew the largest and fastest in the Bush years...

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/news_detail.asp?newsID=31

OK, pretty certain.

As far as drawing AQ in Iraq because it was most favorable, I think that Iraq was most unfavorable, we're still there and they were not there when we got there. They'll be there and in most of the Arab world long after we leave. More favorable would have been Liban, Syria or anything with water front, not some land locked country. (this paragraph is opinion based, not fact checked, though I guess I could research it a little..No time. Sorry.

The Afghan front is not so much about Afghanistan, but more about the Pakistani NUCLEAR arsenal and it's precarious government, (BTW Pronounced : new clee ear, not nucular)


On the Collapse mode, I agree we have to turn this thing around, seems to me that most of the bailout money has been recovered already excepted from AIG

GM and Chrysler bankruptcies resulted in striving companies that are now growing and tons of jobs nationwide that didn't get canned.
Another great move!
And Ford is an example of a company that has their eye on the ball! No bailout and going strong!

On Health care, yes we Americans pay the most in the world more than any other people, yet where do we rank?
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
Why?... Something has to be done, step by step the journey of a thousand mile is cover one step at a time...

Well...I think Obama is doing a pretty good job, had we had McCain who can't do Email with Palin...I'll leave her alone, but unpredictable wing-nut is close to as good a description I can think of.

I think that before we post hearsay, we should check all facts from a variety of sources in order to be more informed rather than restating the Glenn Beck and Rush BS that is now so prevalent. Most of their stories start off with: "I heard that..." The magical phrase that they can fall back and hide behind to avoid libel suits, ..."Just repeating what I heard!"
If they want to be part of the news reporters they should check their facts if not hey should have a disclaimer saying that most of what they say is BS and that they are in the entertainment busines. And personally I think that those who regurgitate this unjustified  BS are not worth much in terms of positive contribution to our National well being.
I would like to stay away from the racism issue that is so prevalent in between the lines, I don't care what my president looks like, I want a leader who get things done to position our country to be able to stay relevant in a changing world.
We are no longer or soon will no longer be the biggest economy in he world, we ought to wake up and make sure we don't become the Dunces of the planet.

BTW Life in the hives...Communism! At least Socialism! All for one, the one being the whole.

So there we go for another round of opinions. Please take the time to research and prove your statements.








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« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2010, 04:29:04 PM »

sorry Ollie, when you use suspect sources to bolster your point, it's not worth responding.

carter did have a recession as part of his abysmal domestic record.  while i confess that i don't remember soup lines, i have no problem with them.  just as in the great depression, the care and feeding of those without, is better done by charity than by government.  same with paying for people to remain unemployed.  how many studies now that show people remain unemployed longer if they are drawing "benefits"?



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Except that we didn't draw AQ in from somewhere else... at least not many of them.  Almost all of those called AQ in Iraq were Iraqis, mostly Sunnis.  We recruited those fighters for AQ by invading and setting up the Shia as the power in government.  


on this you are wrong.

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Government spending is the only way to get out of collapse.  By definition, collapse is when the private sector will not/can not invest in new production or new hiring

where does government get the money it spends?  it gets it from the private sector.  how can the private sector recover when government bleeds it.  as an example, the government spending under FDR is estimated to have dragged out the depression by as many as 7 years.  it was private sector growth due to war production that helped bring change.  even so, the depression did not end until after the war.


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You are claiming that the free market will take care of health care.  It's just not the case.  There is no free market in health care and can't be... for some of the reason you have just enumerated yourself.  When you compare to Europe, remember that the US spends twice as much per capita as those "socialized medicine" countries with no better health outcomes.

i am claiming that the private sector could take care of it.  we do spend more, but we spend more because someone else pays and we pay no attention to cost.  we do have better outcomes in things like cancer survival.  the statistics used by WHO are very misleading.  if you look at how they arrive at those numbers, you'll find that we do far better in most ways than many (not all) of those countries that have socialized medicine.  if you look at those countries that might out live us, it's not because they have government medicine.  it has to do with population make up and life style.  

i don't know who i will support for president.  someone who believes in personal liberty and the constitution will be offered, i hope.

  if you can't pay for your prostate exam that's unfortunate, but not my problem.  it's yours.  you fund it.  which brings up another problem....that of tort reform.  i don't know any docs who will do charity work any more.  the cost to cover malpractice insurance is to high.  most docs join some kind of organized medicine so that they don't have to pay for individual coverage.  it can run 100,000.00 a year depending on what you do.  this is another area that needs attention.  the private family doc is gone and won't come back with overhead like that.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2010, 05:28:18 PM »

When the federal government spends dollars,it removes money available for the private sector to spend. When money is in short supply,interest rates to borrow goes up.
When business is forced to pay higher rates,it only translates into higher costs. These costs are passed on,which is not a great way to stimulate a sagging economy. If you can sell something for two dollars,making that item two dollars and 20 cents is not going to help it sell better and provide a job.
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« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2010, 06:04:25 PM »

throw in the uncertainty of cap and trade and health care costs and business isn't going to expand even if it has the capitol to do it.

 i don't know how many here are AR enough to do as i did, and try to plow through that health care bill, but there is a huge amount of that bill that is still TBD.  much of the implementation and detail is left to HHS and no one knows how it's going to go, or how much it's going to cost.  all we know at this moment is that it's going to cost way more than they said it would.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2010, 06:11:46 PM »

sorry Ollie, when you use suspect sources to bolster your point, it's not worth responding.


Why would I expect a different answer?
It is the typical response used by the right when confronted with an (I sort of love this next word...smiley ) inconvenient truth.
Most of that group, either get loud, threatening, or totally ignore the issue.
On a forum, loud is not easy, threatening will get you ejected so the later was expected. Thank you for fitting in the stereotype.  

I doubt if my sources are questionable, if they are then prove it, back it up with a story put out by these sources that relate to bogus stories.
The invasion of Iraq stories and those leading to that invasion are all bogus, most if not all of the sources were leaks from the Office of the VP.
So go ahead and discredit my sources, but back it up.

BTW, there is nothing personal about my discussion, again I do not attack person with a different point of view, however I will express my point of view and will continue to back up what I believe to be true with stories from any sources available, if those sources are bogus then I shall stop using the ones that you will prove wrong.
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« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2010, 06:16:30 PM »

Wow, I wandered in here thinking that "coffee house" was kinda like those in Amsterdam...my bad dude.
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

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« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2010, 06:30:05 PM »

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Why would I expect a different answer?

all you did with your "sources" was prove that you get your info from those with a certain point of view.  because i spend a great deal of time reading those same sources, and knowing that they slant their news according to their views, i choose not to have a discussion based on faulty info.

if you can source your argument with something even close to reliable, i'd be happy to engage.

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The invasion of Iraq stories and those leading to that invasion are all bogus, most if not all of the sources were leaks from the Office of the VP.

actually, most of the info came from Jordan, France, and the Clinton admin.  Also, much from the UN.  if you search hard enough, you can find those pre-war reports still archived on the UN site.


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Most of that group, either get loud, threatening, or totally ignore the issue.


having spent a great deal of time debating the left, i find this part humorous.  i have been told to do things with myself that i had not even imagined might be possible......that's usually after about 3 posts of blowing away the "facts" of the posters and they have run out of debate material.   evil  if you want to see the usual caliber of left leaning posters, i invite you to go the George Bushs new face book page and read what has been written.

 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2010, 08:41:30 PM »

When the federal government spends dollars,it removes money available for the private sector to spend. When money is in short supply,interest rates to borrow goes up.
When business is forced to pay higher rates,it only translates into higher costs. These costs are passed on,which is not a great way to stimulate a sagging economy. If you can sell something for two dollars,making that item two dollars and 20 cents is not going to help it sell better and provide a job.
There is a fallacy in your logic here.  Our government has two ways to "spend" money.  One is that the Federal Reserve can increase liquidity.  That is another way of saying that they print more money, expect they don't actually have to print it.  They just create it electronically.  This has no direct effect on interest rates but should in the long run result in inflation and that should eventually cause interest rates to rise. That takes a long time and probably would not happen until the recession was over.  The Fed has done this to a huge extent (maybe 2 trillion dollars in the current downturn.)  So far, interests rates are extraordinarily low and are still falling.  That liquidity added by the Fed saved the world banking system.  Without it, there is no question that the economy would have stopped working altogether.  By that I mean that all the banks would go under, no loans would be available, ATM machines would not work.  Economic Armageddon.

The other way money is spent is by Congressional authorization.  That money must be borrowed in the market and should cause interest rates to rise.  That has not happened for an obvious reason.  Because everyone knows the US government will spend whatever it takes to stabilize and stimulate the economy, our country is seen as more stable than others, so money continues to flow into US Treasuries from around the world.  Interest rates are staying low exactly BECAUSE we are willing to spend unlimited amounts it necessary.

What is new in this recession is that the Fed has been buying US Treasuries.  So the Congress authorizes the borrowing of money and then borrows it from the Fed.  This is REALLY creating money from nothing and it makes my head spin. I don't think that is sustainable in the long run but was necessary in this case.
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« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2010, 09:04:24 PM »

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Interest rates are staying low exactly BECAUSE we are willing to spend unlimited amounts it necessary.

another reason given is that global demand for everything, including borrowing is way down.  there is no real competition for money.  no one can afford it.  what we are doing now is borrowing from ourselves in addition to everyone else, to inject money into the economy.  that is not sustainable.  again, it's been done and all it does is extend the recession.  we are living on our reputation and it's about to go in the toilet.

it really doesn't matter how many ways the fed has to spend money.  in the end, it's someone else's money, or it's money they printed.  either way, feds spending can't support or even fix an economy.  it can only temporarily prop it up.  if there is no fix, the prop up has to end at some point.

what's really scary to me is that there is nothing on the horizon that might bring us up.  the entire world is in recession.  where will the markets come from?  the only bright spots have been china and India and there is rumor that the Chinese financial situation is not as good as many thought.  never mind that they manipulate their currency for their own benefit, if their markets crash, we will see something happen the likes of which none of us have ever witnessed.  we really have nothing to offer.  there is no booming steel industry to feed a war effort.  no booming Ag to feed a hungry world.  when the government runs out of money to spend, or continues to print money so that it can spend, nothing we have will be worth spit.

you tell me since economics was never my favorite subject....what will bring recovery?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2010, 10:14:04 PM »



all you did with your "sources" was prove that you get your info from those with a certain point of view.  because i spend a great deal of time reading those same sources, and knowing that they slant their news according to their views, i choose not to have a discussion based on faulty info.

if you can source your argument with something even close to reliable, i'd be happy to engage.


Again if you know that for a fact then please discredit my sources with facts, not a point of view.

 
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The invasion of Iraq stories and those leading to that invasion are all bogus, most if not all of the sources were leaks from the Office of the VP.



actually, most of the info came from Jordan, France, and the Clinton admin.  Also, much from the UN.  if you search hard enough, you can find those pre-war reports still archived on the UN site.


Hummm Not according to this: http://www.mideastweb.org/iraq.htm   or :  http://www.dartmouth.edu/~govdocs/iraq.htm    or : http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_4378.shtml and a bunch of other sources all of course according to you totally unreliable.

 Yet again, if backing up information with legitimate sources is what you require,  please post links to relevant documents to back up you claims.


 
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having spent a great deal of time debating the left, i find this part humorous.  i have been told to do things with myself that i had not even imagined might be possible......that's usually after about 3 posts of blowing away the "facts" of the posters and they have run out of debate material.   evil  if you want to see the usual caliber of left leaning posters, i invite you to go the George Bushs new face book page and read what has been written. 


That is probably the truth right there.
Well done! I can see how some of us on the left, middle or right would get frustrated by someone of an opposed view point. Especially the way you keep pushing your point of views as fact, and how you have so far avoided the issues at hand by shutting down conversation, distracting from the topic and not backing up your claims.
However, we are already past the 3 posts mark and I do enjoy a good debate.
I future, I would prefer that when quoting what I say, you do not take the liberty of taking bits and pieces out of context, I try to be diligent and separate my views points, talking points or statements by starting a new line.
As far as the facebook page of GW, I don't think I'd like to go there, but yes on the left, we probably also have a bunch of boisterous ill informed members who do not have the capacity to put a coherent sentence together.
But you strike me as someone above that description, so I thought that we could debate things, share view points and after all is said, still be courteous, and agree to disagree on many points without hating one another.

Respectfully,
Oliver.



 
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« Reply #57 on: June 07, 2010, 10:37:20 PM »

>>>>and after all is said, still be courteous, and agree to disagree on many points without hating one another.<<<<

That's where we all want to end. Since both sides are so ill-represented in our present government, and has been for 40 years or more, about all we can do is expose the wrongs of the other party and hope they pay a bit of attention and make a few changes.
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« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2010, 11:19:44 PM »

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB80/new/doc%2019/Update%2027%20January%202003.htm

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB80/new/doc%2020/The%20Status%20of%20Nuclear%20Inspections%20in%20Iraq.htm

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html

http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/1998/11/01/981101-in.htm

The Secret History of the Iraq War
Yossef Bodansky

the first two are the last straw reports from the UN inspectors.  if Iraq had cooperated with inspectors there would have been no war.  since they had acted in defiance of the cease war agreement of '91, going back in (like it or not) was completely justified.

the next is the '98 speech by Clinton about the WMD threat from Iraq
next, the change of regime policy that Clinton instated.

last is a very good book that references the Intel before the war.  it is well sourced so you can double check the info for yourself.

that's a bit of a start for you.  there are many, many more UN docs that go through the Clinton years.  there's plenty of history about the Oil For Food program and money laundering. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/60minutes/main3749494.shtml this is interesting and we know that the sanctions against Iraq were close to being lifted.  this was being facilitated by our good friends the French and Russians, both of whom were selling Saddam prohibited items and laundering money for him in exchange for oil.

Intel is not a thing.  it is many, many, bits that are put together to paint a picture.  it is not prophetic.  it is not definitive.  it is almost always a best guess based on what you know and what you think.

now, i have done enough for you.  try to find your facts before they are filtered through the Huff.   Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2010, 04:21:12 AM »

I don't know what you guys want from Obama.

A birth certificate.  I want him to show respect for the constitution which needs to be upheld with no exceptions not matter how good of a person he is, what he has accomplished, what he believes, can do, .............   Until then all else is not relevant, until he pars up and proves he is legally in in office like any other law abiding citizen who does not hide behind racial bias or other cheap tricks. 
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