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Author Topic: May God have mercy  (Read 7949 times)
Jerrymac
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« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2010, 01:11:00 PM »

>>>>When you become a minority and the majority starts taking away your rights, freedoms, and privileges just remember you said it was OK to do so. And just go along with it.<<<

I am part of most US majorities. I want to use the ladies' public restrooms. I want to smoke on commercial flights, it relaxes me. I want to live in a mobile home in an upscale gated community. I want to save time traveling by driving in access of 100 mph on the open highways.


All your examples apply to everyone. I am talking about taking away from a minority what the majority does all the time. But someone else can not because they are not in the club.

Example; straight military dude dates who he wants with no worry. Gay military do does not for fear of reprisals from people not allowing him to be openly gay in the military.

Straight  person marries whom ever they want. Gay folks can't. Just because we can not stand what might be going on in their bedrooms I guess.

Sorry, Jerrymac, people don't get their every whim. Sometimes you just have to suck it in and go with the flow.

That is correct. That is because the majority wants to take away a person's rights. And all of that is mentioned in some past topic somewhere if anyone wants to look it up. Includes the parts about how this country is not a democracy but a republic and the differences in the two.
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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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kathyp
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« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2010, 01:18:17 PM »

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That is correct. That is because the majority wants to take away a person's rights. And all of that is mentioned in some past topic somewhere if anyone wants to look it up. Includes the parts about how this country is not a democracy but a republic and the differences in the two.


depends on whether you are talking about taking away rights, or giving rights.  allowing gays to serve openly is adding rights to a small group for the benefit of the agenda with no proven benefit to the military.  prove the advantage.  prove that it will not disrupt moral and readiness.  prove that it will not be expensive.  discrimination is not an issue because the military legally discriminates all the time.

if there is no advantage to the change, the change should not be made.  the military has no need for openly gay soldier, sailors, or marines.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2010, 01:22:01 PM »

Yes in some of my training I was crawling through brush, picking off ticks, spitting out dirt, all that lovely stuff while living in a tent, eating out of mess kits, washing them out in 55 gallon drums of boiling water. Some one made the coment that the place looked like M.A.S.H.

Then I went on to walking around guarding live nukes and uploaded B-52s in rain, snow, heat, dust.  I was one of the air force grunts. Not all in the USAF have cushy desk jobs.  


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Jerrymac
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« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2010, 01:37:04 PM »

Now you know there is no real way to prove it one way or the other until it is actually done. All that we say here is just speculation we arrive at through our own life experiences.

I just wonder however what it is you are afraid of? Another woman looking at your body? Isn't that all it boils down to?

As I said, there were gays when I was in. I knew of a few and there were rumors of others, and that was all I could come up with for people being against it. Some guy worried about another guy looking at him.  rolleyes

And then of course the prejudice caused by ignorance I suppose. I can't see any other reason for the prejudice if you are still wanting to take the Bible out of it. After all that is where the prejudice comes from. It is a sin so it is wrong. But then we don't worry about all the other sins we are around everyday.
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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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kathyp
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« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2010, 01:52:58 PM »

there is a way to prove it.  you only need to look at what has  happened with the integration of women into the field and onto ships.  it has not worked well.  i was a part of that integration.  it has needlessly added to discipline and morale issues.  it has been disruptive.  in truth, most women don't have what it takes to do that kind of work and so accommodations need to be made for them,  both for their psychological health and their physical health.  by honestly looking at the problems of integrating women, we can have a pretty good idea of what the problems will be integrating those who are openly gay. 

the women were integrated because of an agenda, not a need of the military.  some NOW types and congress women thought it would be a super idea.  of course, neither they nor their daughters ever served.  while many women do a fine job, it was a needless addition and disruption to the military. once done, not to be undone.
   most women, especially when they are young, can't stop being women.  again, probably a biological response, not a personal failure.
 
what i fear, is what i always fear.  the desires of a few who wish for social change are being considered over the needs of the military.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
wayne
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« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2010, 09:22:34 PM »

  The drive for openly gays in the armed forces comes from the more flamboyant in your face gays.
  It is a fact of human nature that we do not hang out with people we don't like or who make us nervous. I do not go to gay bars or hang in the hood with my Homies looking like a gangster. I associate with people I like and in situations that I find comfortable.
  Outside of combat the Grunt has to condition himself to prepare for what he thinks is comming. Combat arms is a very macho world with hundreds of young men trying to convinced themselves that they are brave. It's a practice that dates back to ancient times.
  To date gays have served under the existing conditions with honor and dignity. Just as you don't need to see lay preachers in barracks standing on foot lockers, you don't need to see the guys in eyeliner and heels struting down the halls. Dump either one into a barracks and the troops get nervous. When they get nervous they don't listen to instructions and they end up dead. Bad for the troops and the country.
  Remember the security contractor where the gay bosses required the straight guys to come to his parties and take part? Think about a case where saying no could get you sent out front and shot dead.
  No good will come of this.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2010, 02:00:47 PM »

there is a way to prove it.  you only need to look at what has  happened with the integration of women into the field and onto ships.  it has not worked well.  i was a part of that integration.  it has needlessly added to discipline and morale issues.  it has been disruptive.  in truth, most women don't have what it takes to do that kind of work and so accommodations need to be made for them,  both for their psychological health and their physical health.  by honestly looking at the problems of integrating women, we can have a pretty good idea of what the problems will be integrating those who are openly gay. 

the women were integrated because of an agenda, not a need of the military.  some NOW types and congress women thought it would be a super idea.  of course, neither they nor their daughters ever served.  while many women do a fine job, it was a needless addition and disruption to the military. once done, not to be undone.
   most women, especially when they are young, can't stop being women.  again, probably a biological response, not a personal failure.
 
what i fear, is what i always fear.  the desires of a few who wish for social change are being considered over the needs of the military.
Wow. Do you have issues with women voting and keeping bees also?

I am sure the integration of ANY group into ANY other group has glitches and rough bumps to work out. Doesn't mean that it is not worth doing. We've done it before, and I'm sure we can do it again.

Jerrymac has excellent points Smiley

Wayne--I'm pretty sure military dress code would resolve any eyeliner and heels issues...
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The pedigree of honey
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kathyp
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« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2010, 02:09:29 PM »

there is no point in trying to explain the military to civilians.  there is no civilian comparison.  you don't know and can't understand the lifestyle and conditions.  glitches you get on your computer.  bumps you get with a bee sting.  the military is life and death, it is not a social club.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 02:22:55 PM by kathyp » Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Keith13
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« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2010, 02:33:20 PM »

there is no point in trying to explain the military to civilians.  there is no civilian comparison.  you don't know and can't understand the lifestyle and conditions.  glitches you get on your computer.  bumps you get with a bee sting.  the military is life and death, it is not a social club.

Cannot be stated any clearer. Nice one Kathy

Keith
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luvin honey
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« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2010, 02:44:35 PM »

That's a little disingenuous. None of us can understand exactly what another's life is like, military or civilian. We still have discussions, doing our best to explain our part.

I thought you did an excellent job describing the military and some of the concerns. I just also believe that anything new is difficult at first. If a problem has people who WANT to solve it, then they will. If they don't want a solution, they won't find one.
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kathyp
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« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2010, 02:56:23 PM »

Quote
If a problem has people who WANT to solve it, then they will. If they don't want a solution, they won't find one.


thing is, it's not a problem and it doesn't need a solution.

look, i can explain to a millionaire what living in a slum is like.  that millionaire may be able to visualize it.  they may really want to understand it.  until that millionaire smells the smells, and steps in the crap in the gutter, they can't have any understanding.  even then, the millionaire knows that he doesn't have to live the life.

i am not critical of the fact that civilians can't understand the military.  it's just a fact.  if i talk about 17 days in the field without a shower, the best you can probably do is picture a 3 day camping trip.  it's not quite the same....and i don't suggest that you try it.  just understand when i tell you that it's unpleasant, i know what i'm talking about.  understand that when i tell you that the integration of women into almost all of the fighting force has not worked well. i know this because i have lived it.  it still is not working well.  my sons are now living it.  can adjustments be made?  sure, and they have been.  should they have had to make those adjustments?  not when they are to the detriment of the fighting force.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2010, 03:07:51 PM »

Quote
If a problem has people who WANT to solve it, then they will. If they don't want a solution, they won't find one.


thing is, it's not a problem and it doesn't need a solution.

look, i can explain to a millionaire what living in a slum is like.  that millionaire may be able to visualize it.  they may really want to understand it.  until that millionaire smells the smells, and steps in the crap in the gutter, they can't have any understanding.  even then, the millionaire knows that he doesn't have to live the life.

i am not critical of the fact that civilians can't understand the military.  it's just a fact.  if i talk about 17 days in the field without a shower, the best you can probably do is picture a 3 day camping trip.  it's not quite the same....and i don't suggest that you try it.  just understand when i tell you that it's unpleasant, i know what i'm talking about.  understand that when i tell you that the integration of women into almost all of the fighting force has not worked well. i know this because i have lived it.  it still is not working well.  my sons are now living it.  can adjustments be made?  sure, and they have been.  should they have had to make those adjustments?  not when they are to the detriment of the fighting force.
I've gone almost 10 days without a shower (backpacking). By the end, that's ALL I could think about Cheesy Actually, you make a good argument for the nonsexual appeal of a nonshowered person, man, woman, homo- or heterosexual, actually...

As for the "there is no problem..." part, well I guess if a person happens to be gay and wants to be in the military, there IS a problem.

Like many issues that come up on here, I'm always curious how other militaries handle this. Does anybody know?
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iddee
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« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2010, 04:30:34 PM »

What if I were blind in one eye, and wanted to be in the military, should they be made to take me anyway? After all, it isn't my shooting eye.

What if I was born club footed. It's not my choice to be that way. Should they make provisions for me?

I guess some folks just can't accept the real world, so they make their own fantasies and expect everyone else to accept them.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2010, 04:32:24 PM »

What if I were blind in one eye, and wanted to be in the military, should they be made to take me anyway? After all, it isn't my shooting eye.

What if I was born club footed. It's not my choice to be that way. Should they make provisions for me?

I guess some folks just can't accept the real world, so they make their own fantasies and expect everyone else to accept them.

Sexual orientation is comparable to physical disabilities? Huh? Maybe having a sexual orientation at all is the disability. Perhaps only asexual people should be allowed in the military--then no sex issues would be a problem...
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The pedigree of honey
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Irwin
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« Reply #54 on: May 27, 2010, 04:37:46 PM »

I don't have accept ANY THING that is shoved upon me. But when your in the military I guess you do. If I follow Jerrymac or lovin honey right. Think about this Let's say you hate Okra and I make you eat it are going to like it or me NO your going to hate Okra more and me. And That is what they are doing with the military. I'm with Kathy and Keith on this one.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2010, 04:43:59 PM »

I guess I don't see it as being shoved on anybody. Like someone already mentioned (Jerrymac?), personally I don't want ANYBODY'S sex life in my face, regardless of orientation. Personally, I think it is quite personal. If it is kept personal, I think people of any orientation should be able to serve in the military. Perhaps adjustments would have to be made....

Now, if gays in the military are totally "in people's faces" about their sex lives (or heterosexuals, for that matter), then I would have a big problem with that.

But, demanding to be part of an institution that all other people can be a part of (women, men, white, black, etc.) is not shoving your orientation in other's faces. As a woman, I'm glad women before me fought the fight for equality, or I probably would not even considered all the possibilities that have been made real in my life as a woman...
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Keith13
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« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2010, 04:50:55 PM »



Like many issues that come up on here, I'm always curious how other militaries handle this. Does anybody know?

The Iraqi army takes them out and shoots them in the head or removes their head. The russian army whipes them with a whip. The Chinese beat them with a cane until they choose not to be gay, as does thailand. The romans used to put them on crosses. don't think we really want to look at how other armies deal with this issue

America just ask that you keep it to yourself. I guess thats too much to ask for

Keith
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Irwin
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« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2010, 05:05:31 PM »

I guess I don't see it as being shoved on anybody. Like someone already mentioned (Jerrymac?), personally I don't want ANYBODY'S sex life in my face, regardless of orientation. Personally, I think it is quite personal. If it is kept personal, I think people of any orientation should be able to serve in the military. Perhaps adjustments would have to be made....

Now, if gays in the military are totally "in people's faces" about their sex lives (or heterosexuals, for that matter), then I would have a big problem with that.

But, demanding to be part of an institution that all other people can be a part of (women, men, white, black, etc.) is not shoving your orientation in other's faces. As a woman, I'm glad women before me fought the fight for equality, or I probably would not even considered all the possibilities that have been made real in my life as a woman...
Talking to you is like talking to a rock that can't see beyond it's nose. I'm done here ! 
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luvin honey
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« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2010, 05:10:14 PM »

Not sure that such rudeness is called for, but I agree with you. I'm done here, too.
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The pedigree of honey
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kathyp
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« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2010, 05:13:29 PM »

But, demanding to be part of an institution that all other people can be a part of (women, men, white, black, etc.) is not shoving your orientation in other's faces. As a woman, I'm glad women before me fought the fight for equality, or I probably would not even considered all the possibilities that have been made real in my life as a woman...
 
 
 
all other people can not be part of it.  women who fought for your equality, marched in the streets.  fine, march in the street.  keep your sexual orientation to yourself?  like don't ask, don't tell?  works for me.

i'm out.  you can only explain things so many ways, then you have to give up.  it would be nice it the left such decisions to the military. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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