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Author Topic: May God have mercy  (Read 7611 times)
Bee Happy
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« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2010, 04:09:20 PM »

I have to agree to disagree, I've seen presumably straight people who made it through OCS completely flip out and overturn and burn a parked car upon getting overzealous in their celebrations on passing nuke school. Point being that every member of the armed services is expected to act as society's prime example of professional conduct and there's apparently no way of knowing with complete certainty who will or won't be a problem at some point.  Our military only accepts the best available out of society, even those people a judge offers  a suspended sentence to if s/he thinks military training can change by showing them a better path; with the various services picking it up from there  - dismissing the hopeless and useless and giving life changing discipline, training, and skills to the rest who can control themselves and let professionalism be their first objective.
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iddee
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« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2010, 04:12:02 PM »

>>>>Homos are the same as idiots, illegal aliens and spies? Iddee, you probably know a couple fruits and don't even know it.<<<<

No, none are the same as the others, but all are undesirable additions to the military, in my opinion.

Oh, but I do know it. Both male and female. Some are close friends. I still think they should be in positions that fit their stature.

Homo beekeepers..... Sure, why not?

Homo soldiers, confined with their life mate possibles, .... NO!
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
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« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2010, 04:24:15 PM »

i have to wonder what will be the reaction at the Navy/MC ball the first time two men/women dance a slow dance together.   grin  guess that's a subject for another day.....

it's out of our hands.  those making the decision care about those who make the most noise and that won't be the military members.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2010, 04:27:28 PM »


Homo beekeepers..... Sure, why not?


None here, but I once had a queen bee that didn't have an affinity for drones, and it didn't end well.  grin
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« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2010, 06:58:56 PM »

While in the Air Force back in the 1970's I had a friend and fellow airman that was gay. A few of us knew it and he did use it as an excuse to get out of the service.

A lot of us here can say it is all fine and dandy for gays to serve openly in the military.... BUT.... there are those in the military that are absolutely against the gay folk and that is where it becomes the problem. Do you really think after all these years and in these times there are no more racial issues in the military.  rolleyes Should there be? No. Is there? Yes. And it will be the same with gays in the military. If it were a perfect world it would be fine. But you know as well as I do there are some down home Bible thumping country boys that just wouldn't want to shower with a gay guy.

Now all those that think being gay in the military is OK. Why are you against gay marriage? Opps. Another can of worms.
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« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2010, 07:56:18 PM »

ahhh.  much easier to scream "bible thumper" than deal with issues.  in truth, the only issue should be to answer "what is good for the military?".  if excluding groups of people, for whatever reason, is best for the military, the conversation should be over.  doesn't anyone ever get tired of capitulating to one agenda after another?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2010, 08:55:50 PM »

According to Alfred Kinsey, only a very small portion of society is 100% homosexual or 100% straight. The rest of us fall somewhere in the middle. No gays or bisexuals would make for a very tiny army.
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« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2010, 09:58:59 PM »

i suppose there might be some truth to that, but it's what we practice that matters.  besides, gays are not banned from the military.  only those who are openly gay.  since they know that going in, i fail to see the problem.  if it becomes a problem for them while they are in, it is their way out.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2010, 01:01:32 AM »

Yes Bible thumpers. Those that take the parts of the Bible they want and use that as they see fit, forgetting the part about "judge not lest ye be......"

And they are the most likely to be against gay in any way.

The problem for the gay not being open is that they can not be themselves. Straight military dude goes out on a date with girl.... no problem. Gay dude goes out on date with gay dude and is seen and cat is out, no asking involved..... don't ask don't tell falls just a wee bit short.  Oh but the gay people are not allowed all the freedoms of straight folks due to the way straight folks think and feel.
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« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2010, 05:38:11 AM »

How does it make sense to cater to a MINORITY?


This country is going to H in a hand-basket due to the fact we cater to the minority vs. telling them 'this is how it is and is going to be. IF you do not like what is in front of you, DONT DO IT!'

kathyp I agree with you wholeheartedly. 


BTW. I do have acquaintances that are gay.  I do not feel they are less of a person than straight people.  They also dont flaunt their sexual preferences. I will tell a straight couple to get a room and I dont want to hear about last nights escapades just as fast as a gay couple.  IMHO what happens behind closed doors is none of my business.  WHEN it comes to bringing it in to the workplace. Sex period does not belong. 
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Mark Smith - Elkton, OR
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« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2010, 08:31:56 AM »

Then maybe the "don't ask, don't tell" policy should be enforced on straight soldiers, too.  If someone was gay and didn't tell, but fellow soldiers found out somehow, would that soldier be allowed to stay?
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kathyp
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« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2010, 09:06:34 AM »

sorry jerrymac.  i know you want to take every debate there, but to my mind, this is not about bible thumping.  it's about logistics, cost, and a natural biological prejudice that everyone seems to want to deny, but surely exists especially at the height of ones sexuality.

i know you, and i know you'll go back to the race thing.  racial prejudice is not natural, it is learned.  it can be unlearned.

again, the military is not a lab for social experimentation.  the only thing that should matter is how a decision will impact the military.  

no melliphile, it should not.  you seem to be of the opinion that because a person chooses to do a thing, it should be accepted by the military.  i am not.  in some circumstances what they choose to do might be ok.  in the military it would not.

the civilian world is not different, and maybe worse...... i engage in the perfectly legal activity of smoking.  even though what i do is legal, my ability to do it as i choose is severely restricted.  in some jobs, my behavior is complete banned.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2010, 10:24:23 AM »

How does it make sense to cater to a MINORITY?

When you become a minority and the majority starts taking away your rights, freedoms, and privileges just remember you said it was OK to do so. And just go along with it.

Kathy - there is un-natural sexual acts in nature. BUT isn't it weird that when talking about homosexuality all that is focused upon is the sex part. As if they are going to be going around porking each other and everyone else all the time.

And then you once again used the word "choose". Did you choose to be straight? Do you think homosexuality is taught? As you think racism is taught?

Let's see you said;

Logistics... not sure what you mean there

Cost?... How would it cost any different for a gay guy v straight guy?

natural biological prejudice that everyone seems to want to deny, but surely exists especially at the height of ones sexuality.... Now you say a natural prejudice yet you think there is not a natural prejudice against other races? I say the hate against homosexuals is also taught.
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« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2010, 10:26:05 AM »

OH and forgot to mention.

Bible thumpers..... hummm..... The title to this thread is what?    May God have mercy So it started out that way. Sorry Undecided
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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2010, 11:41:46 AM »

taught?


Cost?... How would it cost any different for a gay guy v straight guy?


Really?? Jerry have you seen the modern military?Huh?

1. The entire armed services will now have to take time from training for sensitivity training its already being drawn up now. Cost is missed training and additional funding for class time and instructors


2. Where will we house the homosexuals? Can't put them with the women. Can't put them with the men. So where? you are going to have seperate facilities for the gay soldiers. Cha  ching Cha ching more money.

3. Sexual harrassment? Oh yes have you ever heard Infantry soldiers speak its suck this F that and more gay slurs then you could imagine. Now Nancy boy just got his feelings hurt and now there is a hostile workplace. can you say lawsuit oh yes more money

It doesn't end this will explode in our face and destroy the military as we know it

Keith
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kathyp
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« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2010, 11:47:08 AM »

Quote
When you become a minority and the majority starts taking away your rights

you don't have a right to serve.  the military is not a equal opportunity employer.

Quote
Logistics... not sure what you mean there

men and women are separated in berthing and shower/toilet facilities.  why do we do that?  wouldn't the same reasons apply to those who are gay?

Quote
Cost?... How would it cost any different for a gay guy v straight guy?

see above.  a whole lot of money and effort was put into separating men and women on ships, for instance.  

Quote
Now you say a natural prejudice yet you think there is not a natural prejudice against other races? I say the hate against homosexuals is also taught.


i am not talking about hate.  however, if a straight person, no matter how "open minded" they are, actually visualizes the sex act between those of the same sex, there is almost always a certain amount of repulsion.  call it discomfort if you wish.  the exception might be with men thinking about women.  for some reason, some men like that fantasy.
for those of us who are older and have dealt with our own sexuality it would not be a problem.  for those who are still youngsters, the ones who will be impacted by this decision and the ones who bear the burden of bad living conditions and the stress of fighting, it will be a problem.

maybe you think they should suck it up.  i think they have enough to suck up already.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2010, 12:53:32 PM »

>>>>When you become a minority and the majority starts taking away your rights, freedoms, and privileges just remember you said it was OK to do so. And just go along with it.<<<

I am part of most US majorities. I want to use the ladies' public restrooms. I want to smoke on commercial flights, it relaxes me. I want to live in a mobile home in an upscale gated community. I want to save time traveling by driving in access of 100 mph on the open highways.

Sorry, Jerrymac, people don't get their every whim. Sometimes you just have to suck it in and go with the flow.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
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« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2010, 12:57:28 PM »

Good grief. I already acknowledged the prejudices... remember the perfect world part?

But now here comes the race card..... way back along time ago I am sure there were those that didn't want to share the same showers, drinking fountains, bunk area, mess halls, blah blah blah with  black folks. But it happened. It was absorbed. Now who in the military right now has any doubts that they are sharing the bunks and showers with the homosexuals already? Go ahead raise your hands.  shocked  Oh really? How naive are you?  cool

I had thought about the separation part. You have the straight guys. The straight ladies. The gay guys. The Lesbians. The bisexuals.

About the homosexual guys quarters..... do you even dare to put them in the same room together? Wouldn't that be the same as putting men and women together? (straight that is) How about the lesbians. Perhaps they all would need complete separate housing..... EACH  shocked

Do we determine the  "girly" gay guy and put them with the determined "girly" lesbians? And the Manly of each with the manly of the other?

Quote
When you become a minority and the majority starts taking away your rights

you don't have a right to serve.  the military is not a equal opportunity employer.

I wasn't talking about right to serve, just rights in general. I remember the draft. Some friends of mine were whisked away. "Bye Bye. Say hello to Charlie for me."


i am not talking about hate.  however, if a straight person, no matter how "open minded" they are, actually visualizes the sex act between those of the same sex, there is almost always a certain amount of repulsion.  call it discomfort if you wish.  the exception might be with men thinking about women.  for some reason, some men like that fantasy.
for those of us who are older and have dealt with our own sexuality it would not be a problem.  for those who are still youngsters, the ones who will be impacted by this decision and the ones who bear the burden of bad living conditions and the stress of fighting, it will be a problem.

maybe you think they should suck it up.  i think they have enough to suck up already.

As I said.... For some reason it seems people think they would be going around porking each other all the time. Are you saying if you had a room full of straight men and women an orgy would break out? OH wait. Men and women are quite often in the same room and nothing happens. WOW Wonder if homosexuals can possibly have the same restraint?

I do not care to hear about the sexual escapades of anyone. Never have. When it starts I find a graceful way to walk out. Like start moving my legs  grin

Our kids in public schools and colleges are more than likely to see this kind of stuff everyday. I do not believe they have don't ask don't tell policies there. So the younger folks you all seem so worried about probably excepts it a lot more than you do. (You = generalization)
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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2010, 01:04:09 PM »

Quote
Some friends of mine were whisked away. "Bye Bye. Say hello to Charlie for me."


that falls under duty, not rights.

Quote
But now here comes the race card..... way back along time ago I am sure there were those that didn't want to share the same showers, drinking fountains, bunk area, mess halls, blah blah blah with 


but i don't want to share my shelter, shower, or open toilet, with a black man.  does that make me prejudiced?  no.  i am female.  i wouldn't want to share those things with a white male.  i would not want my 17 year old daughter to share her bed with a man, or a lesbian.  yes, it probably happens, but by enforcing don't ask don't tell, it restricts behavior of those who want to stay in the military.

why do we separate men and women?  no answer? 

if you have not slept in the dirt, this might be beyond your understanding.  does the AF get dirty?   evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2010, 01:09:08 PM »

when i do the red cross things and we have staff shelters, we all sleep in the same room.  gay, straight, men, woman.  not a problem.  we do not share a shelter half.  we do not shower in open showers, or toilet in open bathrooms.  we are all old  smiley.  perhaps it would not matter. 

we are not crammed into a very small space for 6 to 9 months of the year.....

there is nothing in civilian life to compare to the living conditions and stress of military life.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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