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Author Topic: May God have mercy  (Read 7702 times)
Keith13
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« on: May 25, 2010, 04:28:34 AM »

http://congress.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/05/24/compromise-reached-on-dont-ask-dont-tell/

It will be a sad day for homosexuals everywhere the day an openly gay men decide to join the Infantry. The Infantry is a different bread of soldier we will not put down our religious beliefs because the govt. tells us. More importantly the infantry soldier without religious beliefs will not tolerate a homosexual in the shower with him. this will not go over smooth in combat arms and definetly not the Infantry

Keith
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Irwin
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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2010, 07:11:42 AM »

I have strong feeling's about this whole thing. The don't ask don't tell thing is the best thing for the homo's out there. I would NEVER stand next to one in the shower. Who knows maybe I did when I was in the Army and didn't know it that's wear the don't ask don't tell comes in. I better stop before I get myself in trouble evil
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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2010, 11:38:21 AM »

unfortunately, none of these guys making the decision, have served in the field. 

i have had gay friend, family members, and served with gay military members.  i don't care what people do in their bedroom.  the difference in the military is that their bedroom is also my bedroom.....and we sleep in the same bed.  anyone who's ever thrown up a field shelter knows what that's like  grin

i'll give you the RD version of an article i wrote...and got a pat on the back for from a fairly famous colonel  (toot, toot)  evil

contrary to what many PC people would tell you, integrating women into the field and shipboard positions has not gone well.  it is fair to say that it has degraded readiness.  it is fair to say that it has markedly increased discipline problems.  we don't hear about it much because it doesn't fit the political template and because most of these problems have been taken care of at the command level.  the military has spent a huge amount of money doing things to accommodate women and make sure they had separate facilities.

  why?

because the grunt on the ground and the young sailor are in the 17 to 25 age group.  what is the most important thing to that age group?  sex.  you can't discipline that out of kids.  you can't punish it out of them. 
it's not just the sex act.  it's the sexuality.  the sweat it out of their pores.

now you are talking about adding a 3rd/4th gender.  do the gays get separate quarters and accommodations?  do you put the lesbians in with they guys or leave them with the women?  how about the males?  what do you think is going to happen when our have a few 100 straight youngsters and one gay guy?  how about the women?  they can be vicious smiley

our military is all volunteer.  if you are gay and CHOOSE to serve, you know the rules.  you can have your life at home, but you can't advertise it at work.  if that doesn't work for you, don't serve.  it's pretty simple and it works.

one of the best females i ever served with i'm pretty sure was gay.  she did her thing and kept it to herself.  after over 20 years of service she retired from the navy.

so there is my sort version.   grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2010, 11:39:29 AM »

http://congress.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/05/24/compromise-reached-on-dont-ask-dont-tell/

It will be a sad day for homosexuals everywhere the day an openly gay men decide to join the Infantry. The Infantry is a different bread of soldier we will not put down our religious beliefs because the govt. tells us. More importantly the infantry soldier without religious beliefs will not tolerate a homosexual in the shower with him. this will not go over smooth in combat arms and definetly not the Infantry

Keith

But it's okay to put down your religious beliefs to kill someone, right? Is this really the hot topic on the minds of this country's soldiers? Years away from your family, living with the threat of death, deployed to a harsh environment, occupying a socially unstable country, the heartache of friends being killed, basically living day to day with the goal of being able to go home: and the foremost concern in your mind is that maybe the guy next to me in the shower is gay? Are you afraid they might "infect" you with gayness?

I am a veteran. I didn't care one way or the other if a homosexual served with me or not. The few people that I served with that I knew were gay were as solid and dependable as anyone else I had to rely on. Do you really think this is the appropriate venue for your style of fundamentalist bigotry?
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kathyp
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2010, 11:46:14 AM »

yes it is a hot topic.  if it bothers you, don't read it.

this is a coming problem for a lot of reasons.  if you'd spent time getting dirty, you'd understand why.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2010, 11:52:19 AM »

and i'll add....there is a difference between being gay in the military and being openly gay in the military.

my objection is not because of religion. it is because of logistics and discipline.  having experience 1st hand the integration of woman and the problem it has caused, this is not a problem the military needs to be dealing with.  especially now.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2010, 11:56:32 AM »

I can see where this is going. I didn't realize I stumbled into a meeting of the Jerry Falwell fan club. Have fun at the pogrom.
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kathyp
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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2010, 12:03:20 PM »

how about adding your point of view without attacks?  if you have one, we'd be happy to hear it.  if you only intend to attack people for their opinions, why did you bother commenting?

if you don't like the religious angle.  respond to my points.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2010, 12:19:59 PM »

Your points are the same points used to keep women and blacks in menial subservient roles, or to exclude them entirely from the military for decades. Homosexuals are the class of Americans that it is legal to discriminate against. In fact, it is legislated that they be treated as less equal than others in this country. What it boils down to, is that a member of the all volunteer American military does not have any say in policy. You are not your own person, and it is not a democracy. If the prohibition is lifted and you don't like it, then don't reenlist. Hopefully your sense of duty is of greater importance than your own narrow minded interpretation of what the bible says.

"I did everything the bible told me to do. Even the parts that contradicted the other parts." Ned Flanders evil
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Keith13
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2010, 12:24:25 PM »

Bigot? you calling me a bigot?
fine all i'm saying is I went through basic training and Infantry training at Ft Benning, during the 13weeks 3 days of hell the weak were quickly dealt with and removed. Now they want to put openly gay men into that high stress environment? it won't work they will be assaulted, its just that simple. So what to do next give them thier own basic training then try to intergrate them in later? This has hugh problems all over it now our commanders will have to think of new sensitivity training for our Infantry, the same Infantry mind you that still needs to be mean enough to kill on command. I have six years left until retirement. I choose to ETS this year when my enlistment is up I'm done with the PC BS

Keith
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2010, 12:26:29 PM »

there is no sexual component to the color of your skin.  there is a sexual component to being of a different gender or persuasion.  the sexual component makes the restriction valid.  since it is an all volunteer military, if you are homosexual, and can not live with don't ask don't tell, don't join.

don't ask, don't tell, was a compromise.  it was designed to allow gays to serve if they CHOSE to, and reduce the disruption to the military.  it was a good compromise.  it has worked.  it has worked for gays as well, as they have used it to get out of the military when they found it no to their liking.  they used it much the way women use pregnancy.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
MrJeff
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« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2010, 12:31:07 PM »

Do you honestly think someone is going to show up for bootcamp and say "Hi I'm gay, wanna be bunkmates?" Does the UCMJ prohibit rape? Yes. Do women get raped all the time in the service? Yes. I predict that absolutely no one will enlist as an openly gay individual regardless of what congress says. The fear of getting fragged by your comrades will never go away for gay soldier.
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2010, 12:31:41 PM »

I was in before "don't ask/don't tell". THE single biggest reason they gave for gays being unwanted in the military was that it created a risk of a homosexual troop being blackmailed by anyone looking to gain classified/secret information by threat of ruining their career. If that were the truth, the simplest most direct solution to that problem is to officially not care at all about a troop's sexual choices.  Kathy, I see the point about youth being nothing other than a collection of sexual time bombs looking for places to go off, but it suggests that you're talking about high school students at a clambake, not a group of trained, disciplined, military personnel who should have been drilled into a much better than the average civilian's sense of self-control.
Add to that the disincentive that anyone caught in specified places on base with anything stuck in anyone else  (sorry to be graphic) WILL be sent for 3 days bread & water, and half a month's pay for 4 months for both/all parties - if on duty: immediate DD, while at war - same as asleep on watch.
I think it's more important to officially not care about the sexual preference than to set people who want to serve up to be blackmailed and compromised.
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kathyp
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« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2010, 12:42:24 PM »

tell me when a young person puts training and discipline over sex?  what do you think the generator shack is used for?  protecting the generator?

i am saying that the military should take a lesson from the integration of women.  they should be honest, not PC.  integrating women into almost all parts of the military has degraded discipline and readiness.  there are a lot of reasons for this.  many of the reasons are the fault of the women....remember tail-hook? 

i am looking at this from a gender point of view.  there are many places in the military where gender does not matter.  it does not matter as much as the soldier/sailor gets older.  where it does matter and disrupt is with the young soldier/sailor in the field. 

i applaud the person who wants to serve their country.  that's why i have no problem with the current compromise.  this proposed change has nothing to do with service.  it is about agenda.  if this were being pushed by the military, it would be a different story.  it isn't.  it's being pushed by the PC crowd.  the same crowd that pushed women onto ships and into the field, to the detriment of military discipline.  most of these people HAVE NOT SERVED and have no clue what military life is like.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2010, 01:07:41 PM »

I understand that completely. I'm more interested in the security angle of a "don't ask/ don't tell" -serving with honor and knowing that if a friend or enemy gets blackmail pictures the s/he can refuse to cooperate knowing that when the blackmail is followed through the command responds "so what? _____ is a good troop, these pictures are revolting."

As to PC, politicians have their definitions of compromise, and we have ours.
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kathyp
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« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2010, 01:15:42 PM »

blackmail is only an issue for those who know something.  most military don't know anything worth the blackmail.  i'm not sure how much of an issue that would be in the military.  places like the CIA, etc. it might be, but anything could be used.  i would think that adultery would be a good one and easy to facilitate.  in fact, we know from some of the old KGB files that this was done.

if blackmail of military members because of their sexual preference were an issue, it would already be an issue.  i don't think it is.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2010, 01:27:54 PM »

Yeah, fair enough, I just remember blackmail being the primary reason given. I remember the adultery conversation with sailors of more experience (when the conversation happened) and most of them said they would tell their wives themselves rather than disclose secrets. Maybe some of it was just talk but it seemed the right answers anyway.
I don't have a problem with gays being let in, the ones who want to serve aren't the cliche' hippy/fashion flamers most people think of when you say "gay" anyway.
Keith was right too, there's no room for Political Crap in  functioning military. I think with a suitable application of "barbaric" military discipline applied to anyone - anyone who can't distinguish worktime from playtime - most of the issues of people catching other people in awkward situations would be reduced to a handful of campfire stories anyway.
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« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2010, 02:26:14 PM »

Well, why don't we just open it up to all. IQ's of 40, quadriplegics, homos, illegal aliens, even convicted spies, if they have served their time. Yeah, there should be no restrictions. Let everyone have all rights. Why not, the left liberals have destroyed the country anyway, so why try to save it now?
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« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2010, 03:01:23 PM »

Of course, even when all homosexuals were closeted and women only served in administration on mainland bases, there were problems with hookers being snuck on post. Difficult to spot the difference really, being caught with your pants down is being caught with your pants down, doesn't make an iota of difference why they were down. Homos are the same as idiots, illegal aliens and spies? Iddee, you probably know a couple fruits and don't even know it.
The gays who would actually want to serve are not the mincy, skirt wearing, try to look like a woman flaming baked alaska liberace fruitcake everyone thinks of when they hear 'gay'. The gays who would want to serve probably hunted and played football with you and never talked about who they thought was attractive.
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kathyp
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« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2010, 03:15:17 PM »

Quote
Of course, even when all homosexuals were closeted and women only served in administration on mainland bases, there were problems with hookers being snuck on post. Difficult to spot the difference really, being caught with your pants down is being caught with your pants down, doesn't make an iota of difference why they were down. Homos are the same as idiots, illegal aliens and spies? Iddee, you probably know a couple fruits and don't even know it.
The gays who would actually want to serve are not the mincy, skirt wearing, try to look like a woman flaming baked alaska liberace fruitcake everyone thinks of when they hear 'gay'. The gays who would want to serve probably hunted and played football with you and never talked about who they thought was attractive.

the sex act is not the problem.  the sexual tension, is.

i believe that this an an agenda, not a real desire to serve.  there will be those who will push this to the limit with their behavior and then take anyone who objects to court.  there is a segment of the gay activist population that wishes their life style to be accepted by all, even if they have to do it by force, and they will take any opportunity to push the agenda.

most of us agree that what is done in the bedroom is between those two people.  most of us probably don't care what consenting adults do in the bedroom.  however, there is a biological reason that when we actually visualize the sexual interaction between those of the same sex, we find it to some degree repulsive.  there may well be a genetic component to homosexuality.  there is also a genetic/survival of the species component to heterosexuality.  i don't believe that any amount of social programing can overcome that at our deepest levels, nor should it.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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