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Author Topic: Oxalic acid drip  (Read 3869 times)
bee-nuts
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« on: May 17, 2010, 11:53:04 PM »

I have a hive that appears to be queen less.  It has three deep full of bees.  Im thinking of making brood-less nucs.  this is the only hive I did not treat for mites last fall and did not treat this year either.  I want to experiment with oxalic acid drip.  Where do I get it?  Can you get it liquid?  Can you dissolve crystals?  Help fast pleas!!!!  Oh, where do I get the syringe?

I want to treat clusters before I introduce queens.  I figure I can make nucs in afternoon and give them acid drip in early morning when in cluster.  Then introduce queen that evening,  Or something to this affect and monitor mite drop.

Finski where are you?  Is this a good idea?
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danno
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2010, 07:55:06 AM »

acid - hardware store, home depot, menards and such in the the paint section sold as wood bleach
syringe - in Wisconsin I would try fleet farm or your local coop
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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2010, 10:05:53 AM »

acid - hardware store, home depot, menards and such in the the paint section sold as wood bleach
syringe - in Wisconsin I would try fleet farm or your local coop

Thanks danno

We got a Menard's and farm and fleet.  Do you know if the crystals will dissolve in syrup?  I will try to figure this out on internet but if you or anyone else can tell me how to dissolve it and how much to how much syrup and the like it would make my day!!
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2010, 10:37:59 AM »

I seem to recall Finski posting the oxalic mix proportions some time back...maybe a search would help.

Scott
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2010, 11:59:13 AM »

here is what I found

http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=80
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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2010, 01:45:18 PM »

.Recipe:

Take 7,5 gr oxalic acetic powder and put it into 100 g warm water.
Take 100 gr sugar and dilute it in the solution.

Get a digital balance which has 1 g accuray or smaller.

This 160 ml volume is enough for 3-5 hives, depending of the amount of bees .

Give droplets together  4 ml solution in one gap of frames, which is full of bees from edge to edge.

Do not give for one box hive more than 40 ml, and this only for hive which is totally full of bees.

Do not give for 2 box hive more than 50 ml.


Mites will die during next 3 weeks.


You may sheck the balance accuracy with coins.
http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/?flash=yes&action=coin_specifications

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bee-nuts
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2010, 02:54:07 PM »

.Recipe:

Take 7,5 gr oxalic acetic powder and put it into 100 g warm water.
Take 100 gr sugar and dilute it in the solution.

Get a digital balance which has 1 g accuray or smaller.

This 160 ml volume is enough for 3-5 hives, depending of the amount of bees .

Give droplets together  4 ml solution in one gap of frames, which is full of bees from edge to edge.

Do not give for one box hive more than 40 ml, and this only for hive which is totally full of bees.

Do not give for 2 box hive more than 50 ml.


Mites will die during next 3 weeks.


You may sheck the balance accuracy with coins.
http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/?flash=yes&action=coin_specifications

.


Thanks finski!  I take it the powder is not as pure as the crystals?  We have a scale at work that goes down to a hundredth of a gram so I should be ok.

I will stop at a couple stores tomorrow and see what I find.  I already made the nucs but I want to experiment with the stuff before I go and start treating like I know what Im doing.
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sarafina
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« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2010, 09:11:38 PM »

This is how I mixed mine up:

I made up 2 cups of 1:1 syrup since I only have 2 hives and added 18 g. oxalic crystals to the jar and shook it real good until it was dissolved.  I used a turkey baster that I marked 5 ml on the side to dribble it. 

I wouldn't recommend a turkey baster as the solution dripped out of the end and was messy.  I bought a large syringe for injecting marinade into turkeys that already had the ml marked on the side for next year.

I was very happy with the results and super easy to do - good luck!
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Finski
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« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2010, 12:06:44 AM »

Lets look what is the difference with european Union varroa research solution and with
Safarinas solution.  

Safarina's recipe is egual  300 g sugar + 300 g water + 18 g OA  = 3% solution for 14 hives.

I told  100 + 100 + 7,5 = 3,6% for 5 one-box hive or for 3 two-box hive.

3% is ok, because switcherland uses 2,5% OA. Some uses 4% solution.

If you spray OA on bees on boath sides of combs, recommendation is 3%, what Safarina says.

I would say that boath recipes are the same. In bigger volume you must cast away more sugar.

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sarafina
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« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2010, 12:11:59 AM »

Lets look what is the difference with european Union varroa research solution and with
Safarinas solution.  

Safarina's recipe is egual  300 g sugar + 300 g water + 18 g OA  = 3% solution for 14 hives.

I told  100 + 100 + 7,5 = 3,6% for 5 one-box hive or for 3 five-box hive.

3% is ok, because switcherland uses 2,5% OA. Some uses 4% solution.

Thanks, Finski for verifying my math!  I know I will be doing this every year until something better comes along........
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Finski
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« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2010, 12:15:56 AM »

.
When you have a digital balance with 1 g accuracy, it is easy to add 100 g warm water + 100 g sugar +7,5g OA.
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2010, 12:46:53 AM »

Lets look what is the difference with european Union varroa research solution and with
Safarinas solution.  

Safarina's recipe is egual  300 g sugar + 300 g water + 18 g OA  = 3% solution for 14 hives.

I told  100 + 100 + 7,5 = 3,6% for 5 one-box hive or for 3 five-box hive.

3% is ok, because switcherland uses 2,5% OA. Some uses 4% solution.

Thanks, Finski for verifying my math!  I know I will be doing this every year until something better comes along........

How many times did you treat sarafina?  Did you do mithe counts before and after?  Just curious.
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« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2010, 12:31:04 PM »

.
what ever safarina did, trickling can be done only once. It affects about 3 weeks.

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« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2010, 02:27:59 PM »

.
what ever safarina did, trickling can be done only once. It affects about 3 weeks.

.

Finski

Have you ever noticed poor queen performance or death after treatment?  Any other significant side effects?
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sarafina
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« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2010, 11:08:09 AM »

Lets look what is the difference with european Union varroa research solution and with
Safarinas solution.  

Safarina's recipe is egual  300 g sugar + 300 g water + 18 g OA  = 3% solution for 14 hives.

I told  100 + 100 + 7,5 = 3,6% for 5 one-box hive or for 3 five-box hive.

3% is ok, because switcherland uses 2,5% OA. Some uses 4% solution.

Thanks, Finski for verifying my math!  I know I will be doing this every year until something better comes along........

How many times did you treat sarafina?  Did you do mithe counts before and after?  Just curious.

You can only do it once a year and I did mine when I had the lowest amount of brood (in mid-Jan).

I was sugar-dusting my hives last year - started in July after I pulled the honey supers and dusted 5 times about 2 weeks apart.  I kept seeing my mite load increase in my oil trays I keep under the screened bottom boards so I decided to try the oxalic acid drip.  When I pulled my trays 6 days after the drip I had too many to count - quit counting at 100.  I changed the oil and checked again after 2 weeks and only found 2 mites.

I just took a bunch of pictures yesterday of my frames with a really good 35mm and zoomed in after I loaded them on my laptop and didn't see a single mite on any of the girls.  I couldn't tell that it harmed the bees or the queen in any way.  My hives are doing fine this year.
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2010, 02:21:26 PM »

Sarafina,

thanks for post.  I know you can only treat winter bees once.  I have read studies that call for three applications 10 days apart in summer.  I would not do this however.  My main concern is damage to the queen and queen loss frequency.  Formic acid has a side effect of measurable queen loss.  I dont plan on treating anything for the moment until I feel I have an accurate mite count.

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« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2010, 03:46:18 PM »

.
Thymol, formic acid and oxalic is very well documented in internet by researcher.

I have had no problems with dripling. ButI have a long brood break and so varroa is  easy to control

Somethimes i should use in August formic acid or thymol to kill mites before winter bee rearing. The populaition is sometimes too big andf it violates winter bees.
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« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2010, 05:00:58 PM »

Finksi

I checked my average temps and your capital Helsinki average temps throughout the year and we have similar weather pattern.  Im willing to bet I am brood-less when you are.  What month do you do you drip with oxalic acid.  Im thinking late October or November would be a good time. 

My location
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/54729

Helsinki
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/FIXX0002
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« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2010, 05:21:23 PM »

Sarafina,

thanks for post.  I know you can only treat winter bees once.  I have read studies that call for three applications 10 days apart in summer.  I would not do this however.  My main concern is damage to the queen and queen loss frequency.  Formic acid has a side effect of measurable queen loss.  I dont plan on treating anything for the moment until I feel I have an accurate mite count.



I am still learning and have only treated once......  but my understanding is you can only do the drip once a year, regardless of the time of year or you will do significant damage to your bees.  Is the 3 applications 10 days apart the vapor form?  I believe you can do the vapor treatments more often than once a year - I just didn't want to invest in the vaporizer and it seemed to me that the once-a-year drips were enough.

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« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2010, 06:16:09 PM »

Sarafina.

What I speak of was from a study I read s week or so ago.  I cant remember the percent of concentration but it was the drip method and the claim was that with fresh brood hatching there was little damage to colony.  I know that if you are treating the winter bees you cant do this because these bees have to make it through the winter and cant take the multiple treatments.  I am not advocating two or three treatments nor do I think it a good idea on summer or spring bees.  I only want to see if anyone does it and there observations.  I personally am worried more about the effects on the queen if re-queening is not practiced.  I dont see how one can evaluate queens if you dont tr to keep them around two or three years.  That said, I dont want to use pesticides, or chemicals that will contaminate the wax or honey.  On top of it, Apistan and the likes are very expensive and treatment time is ridiculous, not to mention feeling guilty giving someone honey that must contain some of the poison.  Honey in brood chambers will be moved up into your honey supers so there is no way to safely treat with these other products in my opinion.

I did try to find the study but did not find it.  If I run across it again I will post it.

Good luck this season Sarafina.

Bee-Nuts

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« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2010, 07:47:27 PM »

Ok, that makes sense.

As far as I know I have the same queens that got dripped in Jan - i.e. I haven't re-queened nor found any queen cells from a supercedure.  I have seen no difference in their laying this year from last year when I did not drip.  The yellow hive is going gang-busters like it did last year and the blue hive is slower to build up.  I re-queened the blue one last summer but not because I re-queen regularly but because it had become too aggressive to work.  That set it back of course, so I don't have a full season history like I do my yellow hive but I didn't observe any negative effects on either queen.

I have never used any chemicals in either hive and this is my third year with the yellow hive and second year with the blue one.

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bee-nuts
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« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2010, 08:14:18 PM »

good to hear Sarafina.  I remember the posts about your hot colony. Im glad you got it under control.  Hope I never get one like that.  I always worry when I queen with queens from down south.  I have heard of a few incidents with packages here with queens from the south that turn into  vicious monsters.  Its not a matter of if but when it will happen with open mated queens from the south.  I hope to eliminate the need for southern queens next year or year after with wintered queens in nucs.  Not sure how I will do it yet but I hope to figure it out.
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« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2010, 10:07:43 PM »

Finksi

 What month do you do you drip with oxalic acid.  Im thinking late October or November would be a good time. 


The best is to us is  late of Nobember or beginning of December when day temp is 0-5C.

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« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2010, 10:53:31 AM »



You can find out a lot of useful information about chemical compounds from Wikipedia.     

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid

I was looking for a compound with an acidity close to this that is soluble in my material that I can make the tetraalkyl ammonium salt of.

Thanks!

Yours
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2010, 03:20:50 PM »

That is probably when Ill use it.  I looked at Menards for the acid and could not find it.  All I could find was some liquid wood bleach.  I think Im going to try a couple hardware stores today.  If that fails Ill order it on the net.
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« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2010, 04:25:58 PM »


You can find out a lot of useful information about chemical compounds from Wikipedia.     

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid




This has nothing to do with beekeeping
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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2010, 12:29:50 AM »


You can find out a lot of useful information about chemical compounds from Wikipedia.     

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid




This has nothing to do with beekeeping



Only in your opinion.


In my opinion it is useful and often interesting to know about the chemicals I'm using.   Knowledge is multiplicative.  The more you know, the more you know.


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« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2010, 02:57:41 AM »





Only in your opinion.






I have studied chemistry in univestiry and kept bees 47 years. Yes, I have only my opinions.

Wiki knowledge: oxalic acid is in many plants  ---fine!

Look this list. The number  is percent :  carrot 0,5%,   in honey maximum 0,007%


http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/Other/oxalic.html


Human risk
http://www.ema.europa.eu/pdfs/vet/mrls/089103en.pdf


.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 03:11:41 AM by Finski » Logged

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