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Author Topic: Foundation Support  (Read 3690 times)
drgenegarris
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« on: May 09, 2005, 03:43:53 PM »

I am trully a newbee and am wondering if some of the reccommendations are true about wiring foundation.

I have purchased and assembled 30 deep frames for my hive and as of yet have not secured the foundation into the frames.  What do I *need* to do?

Is wiring necessary?  Are those little support pins enough?  Do you need any additional support at all?

-Gene

http://honeybees.drgarris.com
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Miss Chick-a-BEE
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2005, 05:00:29 PM »

Is this all pure wax foundation? Cause the plastic that is covered in wax doesn't need any supports.

But I only use the plastic type foundation, so if it's all wax, I can't answer for you. Someone else can for sure.... but it is best if we know if it's wax or plastic.

Beth
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burny
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2005, 05:23:27 PM »

what you need is an embedding tool. it kinda looks like the spurs from john waynes boots attatched to a short stick. put a 1x under the frame and run the tool over the wax staying on top of the wires underneath.
       tried not using wires ,...over time (and heat )the foundation curls.
      we believe wax is better than plastic...just our (and i think the bees) preference.

                               may your bees live long and prosper,
                                                                      burny.
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manowar422
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2005, 07:51:33 PM »

Welcome DR. Gene

Wires in frames are primarily to help the foundation keep
It's shape when placed in a honey extractor.

Do to the larger size, DEEP frame foundation will require additional support for the larger sheets,
but if you are using the plastic foundation in wood frames, just the pins would be OK, IMO

If your foundation is wax WITHOUT wires, then I would probably
recommend you install wire through your frames. There are a few methods for wiring,
choice of pattern (criss-cross or horizontal) and how to embed
the wire in to the sheet.
Whatever you do, you'll have to find what works best for you.

If using wax sheets that HAVE verticle wire molded in,
then I just use the pins.
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manowar422
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2005, 01:42:41 PM »

I have since found that all wax foundation will
benfit from the embedding of horizontal or cross
wires through the frame. embarassed

Almost all of my crimped wired deep foundation
(which was only supported by pins) was discovered
to be badly warped this summer. angry

Probably the heat was to blame somewhat, but I'll not
make this mistake again. I'll take the time to wire all
my frames from now on.

The 50 medium frames I built this year are all horizontally
wired and all the frames I put in this year have had
good comb drawn on them.  Cheesy

The only type of foundation I would not support with wire,
would be plastic sheet foundation coated with wax
(which I will never use or purchase).
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2005, 03:42:29 PM »

>I am trully a newbee and am wondering if some of the reccommendations are true about wiring foundation.

True in what way?

>I have purchased and assembled 30 deep frames for my hive and as of yet have not secured the foundation into the frames. What do I *need* to do?

Are they plain wax, DuraComb (wax on smooth plastic core) DuraGilt (same as DuraComb but with metal on the edges) embossed plastic (rite cell, pierco, etc.)?  Only the plain wax really needs it.

>Is wiring necessary? Are those little support pins enough? Do you need any additional support at all?

I disagree that it's only for extracting.  I can extract comb with no wires in it fine all the time.  For me the purpose of wire is to hold the foundation flat in the frame until the bees get it drawn.  If they do this quickly, the pins are adequate, but the bees seldom follow your timeline and if they don't do it quickly the wax foundation will not only warp, it will eventually fall completely out of the frame.  Then the bees REALLY make a mess AND you've wasted the foundation.

It is well worth learning to wire wax foundation if that's what you are using.

Or put a comb guide on the top or a starter strip and forget wiring.  Smiley
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
yab
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« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2005, 08:58:50 AM »

If using guide-only frames (e.g. wedge-on-edge) do they need drawn comb either side of each empty one or will they usually get the right idea if given a full box of empty frames.

(assuming good wax-drawing conditions)
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2005, 10:05:16 AM »

In the end the bees do whatever they want, so wether using foundation of various sorts or foundationless you're just stacking the odds.

If you put a simple empty frame between two drawn combs that are either capped or are brood combs, you don't even need a guide.  The bees will use the drawn comb as a guide.  A simple empty frame works fine for that.  If you have a comb that used to have a comb in it and you leave the impression of the first row on the top bar you don't need a guide.  If you leave the first ROW of cells it's even better.  If you use a guide they will usually follow the guide even if the combs on either side aren't drawn, but I find it improves the odds a lot to have at least one nicely drawn comb in the box to get them going the right direction.  I like it in the center.

Once in a while they will mess up.  Even with foundation.  The up side of foundation is they run into a barrier within about an inch and a half and have to make the decision to mess up or not again.  Smiley
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Dale
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« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2005, 07:24:18 PM »

I wire my small cell foundations so they don't sag.  The bees draw comb very ugly when the foundation sags.  I wire my frames with 1 wire, but it goes across 4 times, leaving 2 ends.  I then use an electric embedder, touching the 2 ends, until the wires melt into the wax.  Like anything it takes practice.

The embedder can be made with a transformer. My output is 17vac, but I guess you could go lower. Getting any higher, will melt the wire much faster, and then you get a foundation cutter!  I used an old vcr power supply, and took the outputs from it.
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Dale Richards
Dal-Col Apiaries
Drums, PA
www.hazleton.net/users/dalcol
Michael Bush
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« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2005, 07:28:55 PM »

> The bees draw comb very ugly when the foundation sags.

Very ugly.  It only takes a few hot days and bees who hesitate to draw it and it can be a mess.  Wiring makes a world of difference in this regard.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Michael Bush
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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2005, 07:29:35 PM »

> The bees draw comb very ugly when the foundation sags.

Very ugly.  It only takes a few hot days and bees who hesitate to draw it and it can be a mess.  Wiring makes a world of difference in this regard.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
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