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Author Topic: Anti "Papers Please law" Tea Party rally?  (Read 8599 times)
David LaFerney
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« on: April 30, 2010, 11:36:33 AM »

Anybody know where / when that's gonna be?   I could really get behind that limited government cause.
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2010, 12:08:00 PM »

you might want to read the law that AZ passed before you get all excited about it.  you might also want to look at what has been happening in AZ with the deaths, kidnappings, crime, etc.  

"Papers please" is just a buzz term to get uneducated people excited.  what do they ask for if you get pulled over?  ID!

Oregon started requiring "papers" to get a DL.  the DMV is now pretty much empty.  it works.

i am in favor of immigration and a workers program, but no one has the right to break our laws and be here illegally.  it's not the old days where farm workers came over and worked the fields and hoped for a better life.  even they are victims of the cartels that control the crossings.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2010, 12:30:49 PM »

I was happy to see the AZ law signed. Maybe the Washington village idiots will wake up now. I'm all for legal immigration, my mother immigrated here from Germany, but it's time to kick the illegals out and make them get a green card to come back. Every country has the right and obligation to protect its border. Please note that I have no problem with Mexican immigrants, they're hard workers and reliable, but they need to come here LEGALLY!
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kathyp
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« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2010, 12:54:16 PM »

i grew up with  the kids of Mexican farm workers.  no doubt many were here illegally.  the difference was that we did not have the crime.  those folks came here to work and they worked hard.  my son lives in AZ and it's a mess.  the crime rate has skyrocketed.  the cartels don't care who they bring over, or where they are from, as long as they are paid.  

if you are here legally with a green card or work/student visa, you are required to carry that info with you and show it on demand.  AZ is simply making the federal law, the state law also.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
David LaFerney
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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2010, 01:18:08 PM »

you might want to read the law that AZ passed before you get all excited about it.  you might also want to look at what has been happening in AZ with the deaths, kidnappings, crime, etc.  

"Papers please" is just a buzz term to get uneducated people excited.  what do they ask for if you get pulled over?  ID!

Oregon started requiring "papers" to get a DL.  the DMV is now pretty much empty.  it works.

i am in favor of immigration and a workers program, but no one has the right to break our laws and be here illegally.  it's not the old days where farm workers came over and worked the fields and hoped for a better life.  even they are victims of the cartels that control the crossings.


So you're OK with an agent of the State having the power to take you into custody unless you can prove on the spot that you are innocent of any wrongdoing -  without probable cause?  Thus - the state may presume anyone to be guilty and the individual now has the burden to prove their own innocence.  You're really OK with that?
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kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2010, 01:40:36 PM »

get back to me when you have read the law and compared it to the already existing federal law.

are you ok with the people of AZ who are there legally being victimized by those breaking the law?  is it not the job of the police to protect the citizens?  is it not the job of the feds to secure the borders? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2010, 01:51:25 PM »

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

i'll make it easy for you.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2010, 01:54:45 PM »

They still need to have probable cause.  If they are legal then they just need to show their papers.  Or they don't their name which should show up in the legal immigration database.

I worked with a couple of toughs who were out walking around town at 2am and the police asked for their ID and had a huge hassle because they didn't have any.  They are white, and this was years ago.  Being scruffy looking white guys out in the middle of the night is probable cause.

When I'm out driving around, or not driving around, I always carry my papers around that prove me legal.  Well, that little card, anyway.  Any illegal still needs to provide a drivers license when pulled over.

I find it is ironic that Arizona made it illegal to be an illegal alien.

And I would find it much more satisfying if instead of charging or turning the illegals over to the fed, Arizona would give them a free vacation to Sanfransisco and St Paul Mn...

But then again, it sounds like some of the loudest complainers want to take the same thing to the next level...
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/95235-democrats-spark-alarm-with-call-for-national-id-card
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Rick
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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2010, 01:57:04 PM »

I'd rather have a large state government than a huge federal one.  Then at least you can get away from a bad one more easily.
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Rick
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« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2010, 03:26:17 PM »

I like it, I think they should have a 'profiling allowed' clause in there too. - not a pile of illegal Norwegians in Arizona, or English, or Canadian...
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« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2010, 04:22:21 PM »

David, a little known law is that you must carry your social security card with you at all times. Been in affect for many years. Probably as long as social security. If you don't have it, you are breaking the law. Where does the due process come in. You are guilty, period.
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David LaFerney
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« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2010, 09:22:42 PM »



Actually I already looked it over.  Didn't read the whole thing word for word, but all in all it makes perfect sense.  The problem as I see it is right up front when law enforcement is given this mandate:

WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON.


Maybe you don't have a problem with that.  How about if it said this instead:


WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS SEDITIOUS OR IS CONSPIRING
SEDITION AGAINST THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE ALLEGIANCE OF THE PERSON.

Would that be abusive? 
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

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iddee
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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2010, 09:39:14 PM »

>>>>WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS <<<<

No, that would not be abusive if >>>>THE ALLEGIANCE OF THE PERSON<<<< is required by the law.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2010, 09:51:29 PM »

I was just looking at where everyone was from that has commented on this so far.

I am the first person from a Mexican/American border state to respond.

The operative word is ILLEGAL.

If it was any other crime being committed everyone would be out roaming the woods with torches looking for the monster.

What is going on in Mexico now is going to spill over onto this side of the border sooner or later. If we start now getting the "ILLEGALS" out of here then perhaps we can reduce some of the damage that is about to happen.

REASONABLE SUSPICION.

a couple of Hispanic looking guys in a low rider cruising down the street. Not really suspicious. Don't break any traffic laws and probably nothing will happen.

a van going down the street looking like it is about to break a few leaf springs. Suspicious. Could be loaded with illegals. At least deserves an inspection to see if it is being operated in a safe manner.
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kathyp
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2010, 10:21:49 PM »

jerrymac, it's already spilling over.  my oldest live  north of Phoenix.  it's pretty bad.  drugs, kidnapping, rape, murder, and much of it traced back to the illegals and the cartels.  then there is the abuse of those who come across the border to work and get mixed up with the bad guys.  they are raped, sold, murdered, or essentially held as slaves.  the ranchers are having their lands trashed, livestock killed, and barns robbed.  then there is the rancher that was just killed. 

i never had a problem with people coming and working.  back in the day, they were not criminals for the most part.  just folks looking for a better life.  that's just not a position i can justify anymore. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
David LaFerney
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« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2010, 10:47:57 PM »

I was just looking at where everyone was from that has commented on this so far.

I am the first person from a Mexican/American border state to respond.

The operative word is ILLEGAL.

If it was any other crime being committed everyone would be out roaming the woods with torches looking for the monster.

What is going on in Mexico now is going to spill over onto this side of the border sooner or later. If we start now getting the "ILLEGALS" out of here then perhaps we can reduce some of the damage that is about to happen.

REASONABLE SUSPICION.

a couple of Hispanic looking guys in a low rider cruising down the street. Not really suspicious. Don't break any traffic laws and probably nothing will happen.

a van going down the street looking like it is about to break a few leaf springs. Suspicious. Could be loaded with illegals. At least deserves an inspection to see if it is being operated in a safe manner.

If a police officer can identify ANY violation of the law (Broken tail light is classic) then they have the authority to pull anyone over and ask for the usual papers.  No problem.  If a vehicle looks like it is overloaded.  No problem.   Those are probable cause for investigation, search and seizure.  EI - reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed is probable cause. That is constitutional.  Lowering the standard for search and seizure to suspicion that a crime might have been committed endangers all of our personal freedom.  That is not constitutional to the best of my knowledge.  I'm certainly not a lawyer though.

Spilling over is exactly the point.  Once a legal precedent is established then it can become the de-facto standard.  Mere suspicion that a crime might be committed could become the standard for search and seizure.   
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

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David LaFerney
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« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2010, 10:54:51 PM »

David, a little known law is that you must carry your social security card with you at all times. Been in affect for many years. Probably as long as social security. If you don't have it, you are breaking the law. Where does the due process come in. You are guilty, period.

I've never heard of that, but it isn't the point.  A police officer can't ask you to present your SS card just because you might not have it.  They have to have a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed in order to constitute probable cause to accost you.

A well established exception would be DUI check points, but at least they stop everyone - not just the people who they think look shady. 
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

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David LaFerney
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« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2010, 10:56:34 PM »

you might want to read the law that AZ passed before you get all excited about it.  you might also want to look at what has been happening in AZ with the deaths, kidnappings, crime, etc.  

"Papers please" is just a buzz term to get uneducated people excited.  

You mean like "Death Panels" ?
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

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kathyp
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« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2010, 11:26:14 PM »

like death panels.....although that is probably going to turn out to be a more accurate term smiley

we'll just call it what it is

Comparative Effectiveness Research Commission

you can look up the proposed members and draw your own conclusions.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2010, 11:34:56 PM »


Maybe you don't have a problem with that.  How about if it said this instead:


WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS SEDITIOUS OR IS CONSPIRING
SEDITION AGAINST THE UNITED STATES, a REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE ALLEGIANCE OF THE PERSON.

Would that be abusive? 


Is it abusive?  There are 9 members of a militia in court right now determining if it was true.  I don't think that that attempt was reasonable.  That is exactly what happens already.  Why not apply it to people who are here illegally?
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Rick
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