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Author Topic: Anti "Papers Please law" Tea Party rally?  (Read 8573 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #60 on: May 05, 2010, 10:03:51 AM »

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“Humans seem to often stereotype large groups of people (most of whom they have never met) with broad and often condescending or derogatory generalities.”

my observations are from first hand experience  smiley.  there are two kinds of liberals.  the uninformed and the true believers.  it is the rare liberal that can carry on a conversation with facts.  i will give you credit for not telling me to go copulate with myself, but maybe the language filter prevents that  evil

unfortunately, passionate about your positions as you  may be, you also tend to argue from emotion rather than fact.  then you get all upset when someone comes back at you.  you seem like a sharp fellow.  you just need to decide if you are going to be the uninformed, and lose your debates; or be the true believer (still wrong evil), but informed enough to make the argument.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #61 on: May 05, 2010, 11:47:17 AM »

>>>>That’s a good one.  I have a similar observation:  “Humans seem to often stereotype large groups of people (most of whom they have never met) with broad and often condescending or derogatory generalities.”<<<<

You better believe it. If you are an active, dues paying member of the KKK, I am going to think you are likely a bit prejudiced against certain groups of people. You may have just joined to see what it looked like from the inside, out of curiosity, but I doubt it.

If it quacks like a duck...............ETC.

You know, when I saw all that footage of Tea Partiers quacking like the KKK I thought - That is surely just a small non-representative group that is being featured for the sensational value of their hatemongery - not the whole group.  But if you insist on the whole "walks like a duck" line of reasoning...
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« Reply #62 on: May 05, 2010, 12:01:05 PM »


my observations are from first hand experience  smiley.  there are two kinds of liberals.  the uninformed and the true believers.  it is the rare liberal that can carry on a conversation with facts.  i will give you credit for not telling me to go copulate with myself, but maybe the language filter prevents that  evil


Everyone has observations from first hand experience.  That's why we see things differently.  I don't believe that differences of opinion are always caused by failure to "engage in a lot of lateral thinking and extrapolation."  There are also different bases of experience.

"go copulate with myself"

No. I don't do that because it's pointless, and it would be a dishonor to the upbringing that I was given.

When someone gets in your face (really or virtually) you can either go toe to toe, which usually gets ugly pretty fast. Ignore it - which doesn't do anything to address the situation. Or respectfully request a dial down - which usually works for me in more or less civilized company.
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« Reply #63 on: May 05, 2010, 12:08:50 PM »

No, the tea partiers are a small group representing millions of Americans who are tired of seeing 200 years of hard work and sacrifices handed over to lazy trash on a silver platter by a few bleeding hearts in power. The mainstream are too busy working to go out themselves and confront the lazy, non-working trash that don't have anything better to do.
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« Reply #64 on: May 05, 2010, 12:10:47 PM »

Have you seen the revised maps of Mexico?



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The flame line in the image is the current border - this isn't Xenopobia - this is outrage at a stated intentional INVASION. I have to wonder how dim Americans have to be NOT TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING! 20 million ILLEGALS and our federal government is doing JACK!  
Racism? -  many of the immigration reform supporters are immigrants themselves who filed the appropriate paperwork and waited the appropriate time.
They came here on various visas, got the health clearances paid the processing fees (which aren't as ridiculous as people claim), studied American history and government, fell in love with the constitution and took the oath of citizenship.  Compare THAT to this violent RABBLE who want to harass, flood and destabilize border states until we forfeit quadrillions of dollars in us territory and assets. And Americans sit home and call this unofficial INVASION a search for a better life and and efforts to stop it are rubber stamped as racist by people who refuse to see what's going on right under their noses.
    We should have national guardsmen at the border shooting anyone who tries to get in.
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« Reply #65 on: May 05, 2010, 12:41:49 PM »

I see the yellow sign in the back ground seems to say "we are not criminals...."
I thought anyone that broke the law, knowingly, intentionally, continuously, was a criminal.

They don't know that? What other laws could they break and think they are not criminals?
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« Reply #66 on: May 05, 2010, 01:21:40 PM »

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You know, when I saw all that footage of Tea Partiers quacking like the KKK I thought

where did you see that?  how about 'the race' (la raza) marches on communist day (may day)?  violence, racism, attacks on property and police.  have you ever seen that from the tea party?  i think not.  that kind of behavior come from the left and is considered a reasonable reaction.  

neither immigration nor the tea party marches are about race.  i know the left would like to make it that way, but it's not.  not only is it not, but try as they might to incite racist remarks and behavior, they have not been able to.

i did notice that the leftist marches didn't burn the american flag this time.  guess the organizers decided that backfired on them last time.  BTW....do you know who the organizers of the may day marches were?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #67 on: May 05, 2010, 03:14:34 PM »

Probable Cause: a reasonable suspicion or belief that a person or persons has or is in the process of committing a crime.  This is a requirement for an arrest to be made.

Reasonable Suspicion: An observation or belief that a person or persons is engaged in an activity that may be criminal in nature.  This is required to initiate an investigation.

As can be seen by analyzing the words used in the definitions that they purport a very close relationship.  To the street cop the difference is immaterial as the action he would take is essentially the same in either case.  Hence, my earlier statement that they are one and the same. The difference in degree is one of splitting hairs but it sounds good to make a distinction.  Both require a resonable belief.

a non-primary (secondary) statute is one that is not actionable until and unless a primary statute is invoked first.  In some state the wearing of a seat belt is a secondary offense.  In such a case a police officer cannot stop a car where the driver is noticably not wearing the seat belt.  But if a driver is stopped for speeding then the seat belt law can be invoked and applied to the situation.  This is the case with the AZ immigration law, a law enforcement officer cannot act upon a suspicion that someone might be illegal (such as not being able to speak a word of English) unless a primary offense presents itself.  So in order for a law enforcement officer to even begin to inquire as to someone's legal/illegal status an actionable offense must have occurred first.

BTW:  It is the law in every state that providing Identification to police is a requirement.  Any person, citizen or not, can be detained until evidence establishing their identy is presented.  Acceptable forms of ID are: Driver's license, Passport, notorized Birth Certificate along with a picture, or some other form acceptable to the inquiring agency but a picture is a required part thereof, but can be waived by witnesses testiment.  The Driver's license, being a legal form of ID, is where many states aid the illegal immigrant by not requiring proof of citizenship before issuing a license.  But even the request for ID is a secondary statute.

Probable cause works like this: a cop sees a vehicle which appears to be traveling at a high rate of speed or a speed over and above that of the posted speed limit (and believe me, a good traffic cop can call the speed of a vehicle within a mile or 2 of its real speed) and begins pursuit during which a pacing (matching apeed by maintaining a set distance) said vehicle and upon finding that it is indeed exceding the speed limit stops the vehicle and requests (In Washington State) Driver's license, vehicle registration, and proof of insurance.  The Driver, not possessing a DL is then detained until proper identification can be established.  Whereupon the driver is cited for the spedding and No vehicle operator's license on person (NOVOLOP in coop jargon).  
Or a person hanging around the local 7-11 for several hours raises the suspicion of the clerk on duty, who calls the police who then investigates the reasonable suspicion of a complaintant.

DUI can only be enforced as a secondary offense as some other violation initiates the traffic stop, weaving, irratic speed, no lights, crossing the center or fog line several times in a short distance, etc.  Once stopped the driver is, again, asked to provide ID and if the odor of intoxicants, slurred speach, stumbling, dialated pupils, etc are observed then the offense of DUI can be investigated.  Setting in the driver's seat of a stationary vehicle is not DUI, unless the engine is running, but Physical Control while Intoxicated.

I hope by this time, and the definitions and examples given, that a better understanding of how primary and secondary offenses work and see that the AZ immigration law is initiated.  But to make it even clearer I'll explain profiling.

Profiling: Just requesting papers because of a persons skin color is profiling ,as the liberals claim, and it is tossed out of court every time. Skin color alone is not profiling when it is a primary factor in establishing identification.  Such as "the bomber appeared to be a man of middle eastern decent."  Or, "the bank robber was described as a black man about 6 ft tall."  Also since illegal immigrants come from all continents of the world, just focusing upon persons of a single skin color, is not proper enforcement of the law.  So a case can be made that focusing on persons of a single ethnicity is racial profiling except in cases where the degree of ethnic population is well above the norm.  Which means that in the border states it would be hard to establish racial lprofiling using ethnicity as the sole factor.

The Left choses to ignore how the application of the law is actually done, taking a few facts, to distort the message and twang the heartstrings of emotion.   Just because you "feel" somethings wrong doesn't mean that it is.  If logical analyzsis causes you to think something is wrong, then it probably is.  One is an emotional response, the other is a reasonable belief.
 
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« Reply #68 on: May 05, 2010, 04:17:48 PM »

>>>>That’s a good one.  I have a similar observation:  “Humans seem to often stereotype large groups of people (most of whom they have never met) with broad and often condescending or derogatory generalities.”<<<<

You better believe it. If you are an active, dues paying member of the KKK, I am going to think you are likely a bit prejudiced against certain groups of people. You may have just joined to see what it looked like from the inside, out of curiosity, but I doubt it.

If it quacks like a duck...............ETC.

You know, when I saw all that footage of Tea Partiers quacking like the KKK I thought - That is surely just a small non-representative group that is being featured for the sensational value of their hatemongery - not the whole group.  But if you insist on the whole "walks like a duck" line of reasoning...
Where is that footage?  Because if it existed it would be on every single lamestream media website and newscast for us all to see - and I haven't seen it.

For the record, I've met David and he isn't a 'liberal' in the sense that he just feels and doesn't think - but he does post from the heart.  I put 'liberal' in quotes because once you meet someone in person and talk face to face (as he, my husband I did) you understand that none of us fit into generalized groups.  This flat text media makes it easy to try to put people into little categories, real life and experience are far more nuanced than that Smiley
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« Reply #69 on: May 05, 2010, 04:30:14 PM »

If the tea party people are racist then why do I see black folks at the rallies?

Look up blacks at tea party rally on youtube.
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« Reply #70 on: May 05, 2010, 04:37:31 PM »

a couple of thoughts...

1.  i've read over the law....the main beef i have is the "lawful contact" term.  supposedly it is going to be changed to "lawful stop, detention, or arrest".
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/arizona-lawmakers-clarify-lawful-contact
if that change happens, i have very little problem with anything in that law...but the "lawful contact" has to go...it's too ambiguous.

2.  i find the tea party thing interesting...from the outside (at least from my perspective), it seems a bit like the obama campaign.  obama touted "change" and america rallied behind...but what surprised everyone (well, not me, and not many posting in this thread) was that everyone that wanted change wanted something different, had a different goal in mind.  the tea party seems like a similar thing to me, many discontented people that all want something different...not republican, not libretarian...something different....like "change" (yes we can).  i'm not saying that the tea party stuff can't do some good, just that i think many involved would/will become discontented when they "win" because most won't want to support whatever is done by the winners.

deknow
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« Reply #71 on: May 05, 2010, 04:42:08 PM »

I completely disagree, the Tea Party is nothing like the Obamaites.  The Tea Part movement has been percolating for a long time, it's a reaction to the slipping away of our freedoms, started long before Obama, he's just brought it to a fine head.   

As for the Tea Party being racist, please, that is nothing but liberal spin.  They are so afraid of the TPM they will stop at nothing to try to besmirch them - and their members are people like me, and you, and the black guy who lives around the corner, and everyone who is concerned about the direction this country is headed in.  So, as in my previous post, trying to 'pigeonhole' the TPM members is an effort in futility - and insulting to all of the thinking folks who believe in their cause.
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« Reply #72 on: May 05, 2010, 06:03:09 PM »

i agree about the change thing.  it was never defined and so it was bound to dissapoint....although, i will admit that we got 'change'.

as for the tea party movement, it's not a political party.  there is not a platform other than reduction of government, spending, and taxes.  there isn't anyone running as a tea party candidate.  for that reason, and because they draw from both parties and many independents, they probably have more power.  they have put everyone on notice. 

it is also encouraging to see a large number of women and minorities realizing that liberals do no represent their values and have never been on their side other than as much as had to be coughed up to buy votes.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #73 on: May 05, 2010, 08:19:55 PM »

Lets get this clear - *I didn't say that the Tea Party is racist*.  I have certainly seen footage of racist behavior going on at tea party gatherings on TV.  The point was that when you have limited contact with a small part of a large group of people you could be mistaken when you stereotype the whole group based on that small sample. 

I'm not about to post a bunch of links to videos of Tea Party racism - if you want to it won't be any problem to find.  Just go to youtube or google for it.  You will see plenty of people showing proof that they are not racist and plenty more showing that they are - if you look.   If you do look you will almost certainly see posters with the N word, posters with Obama in black face, posters with him made to look like ,Hitler, the Joker, an ape, an African medicine man, etc.  You might see the guy with the poster that says "Save White America" with Sarah Palin talking in the back ground.  There is one video of a group mocking a guy with Multiple Sclerosis.  There are poster along the line of "Deport the Kenyan."  Plenty of it to find.

I know for a fact that there is a racist element in the Tea Party because my dad is a supporter and he's a racist.  He can't help it - it's how he was raised - he's a good guy.  It would be naive to think that any anti Obama group does not have a racist element.   It's fairly naive to think that any group doesn't have a racist element.
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« Reply #74 on: May 05, 2010, 08:32:59 PM »

Oh, please, because your father is a racist, the Tea Party endorses racism?  I'm sorry, David, but that is so ridiculous I can't even believe you said it.  There are racists in all walks of life, in churches, in stores, in schools  - do all those places also become 'racist' because a racist joins them, or goes there?  No, the Tea Party does not endorse racism.  Just because some moron behaves in a racist manner at a rally doesn't mean the Tea Party is all for them.  A side thought is now you're calling the black people who attend (and they do attend) racist, too - do they hate black people, too?  Come on.
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« Reply #75 on: May 05, 2010, 08:35:10 PM »

the media will be sorry to have missed these posters.  it was their goal to prove the movement racist.

i have no problem with the nazi or joker posters.  that's not racist.  nazi is incorrect.  marxist would have been more accurate, although in truth, there's not much difference.  as for the others, post links and i'll look.

you are correct. there are racists in all movements.  there is a difference between groups like la raza, which are racists, and groups like the tea party that may have a few racists in them.  our own president apparently is a racist.  how else could have have sat in that church for 20 years? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #76 on: May 05, 2010, 08:58:11 PM »

Oh, please, because your father is a racist, the Tea Party endorses racism?  I'm sorry, David, but that is so ridiculous I can't even believe you said it.  There are racists in all walks of life, in churches, in stores, in schools  - do all those places also become 'racist' because a racist joins them, or goes there?  No, the Tea Party does not endorse racism.  Just because some moron behaves in a racist manner at a rally doesn't mean the Tea Party is all for them.  a side thought is now you're calling the black people who attend (and they do attend) racist, too - do they hate black people, too?  Come on.

Maybe you missed where I pointed out that *I never said* that the Tea Party was racist?  I wasn't kidding.  I also pretty much said that any group has a racist element.  There are always a few.  My dad is a racist.  He is also a good person.  It was intentionally absurd to say that my dad being a racist meant the tea party has a racist element.  Which it nonetheless does.  So does the NAACP, BSU, BSA, GSA, YMCA - any group with any significant number of people almost surely has some racists.  For that matter Pretty much every person has some degree of prejudice built in - IMO.  Is that the same as actually being racist?  I don't think so.
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« Reply #77 on: May 05, 2010, 09:33:17 PM »

I'm certainly glad you included the naacp, since it and the rainbow coalition are the two MOST racist groups in America today.

It's sad to realize that we have sunk to the point that "self preservation" has been defined as nothing but racism for the white people, but still is accepted everywhere for all other people.

It is even sadder to realize that many white idiots have joined that sham.
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« Reply #78 on: May 06, 2010, 12:02:32 AM »

When was it repealed? It sure existed when I read it in the SS documents. Of course, that was some time ago, but I never heard of it being changed.


it never was...it's not even required that you have one (you need one as a child if someone is going to claim you as a dependent, and many financial things require them, but as a citizen you are not required to even have a number).

i've heard the same claim before...usually by somone who is trying to make a point about "Big Brother"...but as far as i can see, it is an urban myth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number

this is the problem with the arizona law...it requires CITIZENS who might look, act, or otherwise appear to be possibly illegal to prove their citizenship.  as was pointed out by another poster, "lawful contact" with a police officer covers almost anything (including an officer knocking on your door to let you know there is a problem in the neighborhood...and the police can be sued for not checking for citizenship.

i'm not against guns...i don't own one myself (it's difficult in massachusetts), but i did shoot rifles as a kid, i've been on the wrong end of a gun (lived to talk about it...wrong place wrong time...being armed would have likely gotten myself and/or my friends killed).  i was married in arizona, and although i don't believe anyone had a gun on their person at the ceremony, both the officiator and the two witnesses did have guns in their vehicles...and the witnesses were minutmen (we were married on a ranch that they used as a base of operations...because it's close to the border and on human and drug smuggling routes).

i've been in vehicles where the driver alerts boarder patrol of groups of illegals...and i've seen them "rounded up" (honestly, they were so hot, tired, hungry, thirsty, burned out, etc that they weren't running, they seemed fairly happy being taken into custody where they are fed).   hey, i've even gotten a nasty foot fungus from wearing shoes that were abandoned in backpacks by illegals.

we obviously need some immigration reform...everyone should be documented, but we don't have a system that supports that, nor do we have a system that can possibly prevent border crossings.  with all that said, i don't think we should be profiling....every one of us should be subject to the same treatment (like a dui checkpoint as someone else posted), AND NO CITIZEN SHOULD BE SUBJECT TO POLICE SCRUTINY SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY LOOK HISPANIC AND LIVE NEAR THE BORDER (even if they don't speak english).

deknow


Very well put. It reminds me a bit of the lead-up to the Holocaust, where the Jews were required to prove their heritage. Sincerely not trying to fan the flames here, but history can teach us a lesson or two.
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« Reply #79 on: May 06, 2010, 12:10:48 AM »

I actually think that most liberals are well meaning.  they generally lack an understanding of history and what the constitution says.  they tend to put emotion before fact.  that doesn't make them bad people.  to the contrary, most are really good people.  they just don't engage in a lot of lateral thinking and extrapolation.
Wow. I'm speechless.
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