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Author Topic: Anti "Papers Please law" Tea Party rally?  (Read 8994 times)
deknow
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« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2010, 09:16:11 AM »

>>>>It never was<<<<

WOW!!!!

We have a guy that knows every law that ever was, or wasn't. I guess I can't argue with perfection, so I'll quit trying.

 rolleyes  sorry you were mislead, but it's not my fault.  am i guilty of being too young to have had a draft card?  sure i am (and i'm not sure what that has to do with anything)...but i'm not the one who mislead you to believe that carrying a social security card is required by law.  you are the one spreading urban myths (and claiming to have read the nonexistent law first hand yourself).  talk about shooting the messenger.

wrt the law in arizona, i assumed that david's quote regarding "lawful contact" came from the law itself (is it not?)...i will read it later today when i have time.  kathy, can you please point me towards the federal law that you claim is the same as the arizona law?  thanks.

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iddee
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« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2010, 09:55:27 AM »

As expected....... When they don't know the right, then they do "KNOW" the wrong is right.
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« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2010, 10:12:37 AM »

look up federal immigration law that deals with visas and green cards.  if you are here legally (non citizen), you are required to carry proof and show it when requested.

the AZ law goes no further.  it simply requires the AZ cops to enforce the federal law.  

i left the link for the AZ law on here.....probably a good idea to read it before forming an opinion.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2010, 10:24:07 AM »

I get so sick of this crap about profiling.  If it fits the bill then check it out.

So grow a goatee, your hair long, and slap a few tattoos on your arms and try walking down the street at 2 am.  White, black, yellow, or green you will be profiled.  Police scrutiny.  US citizen or not.

Every time you drive your car, you are going to be submitted to police scrutiny.  If you drive through another state, don't you think you're being profiled?  When you pull a trailer, do you have all the paperwork with you?  Its the law!

Everybody is complaining about what Arizona is doing and not talking about the problem.  Arizona is the only one so far that is willing to tackle the problems.
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« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2010, 10:47:19 AM »

other thing is...we work from the assumption that profiling is bad.  having seen it in action in other countries, i don't think it is.  when resources are limited, it makes sense to look a little more closely at those who fit a profile.  you don't exclude all others, but you also don't waste time doing equal examination of all others so that you don't offend someone.  the army doc would have been a good candidate.  he would have fit into any logical parameters for picking up and insider terrorist.  because we are so PC, we looked for some other, any other, explanation for his behavior.  

he is an extreme example, but i'm betting not the only one who is missed because "we don't profile".
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2010, 10:58:13 AM »

other thing is...we work from the assumption that profiling is bad.  having seen it in action in other countries, i don't think it is.  when resources are limited, it makes sense to look a little more closely at those who fit a profile.  you don't exclude all others, but you also don't waste time doing equal examination of all others so that you don't offend someone.  the army doc would have been a good candidate.  he would have fit into any logical parameters for picking up and insider terrorist.  because we are so PC, we looked for some other, any other, explanation for his behavior.  

he is an extreme example, but i'm betting not the only one who is missed because "we don't profile".

I can only hope that we haven't so lost the military to political posturing that they abandon foolish sensitivity limitations that only hobble them against their enemies.
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« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2010, 12:01:36 PM »

look up federal immigration law that deals with visas and green cards.  if you are here legally (non citizen), you are required to carry proof and show it when requested.
that is exactly as it should be.  the problem i have is that citizens are not required to carry proof of citizenship (nor are citizens required to speak english).  seems to me this law will essentially require hispanic americans (especially if they don't speak english) to carry ID or risk being detained for nothing but looking like an illegal.

Quote
the AZ law goes no further.  it simply requires the AZ cops to enforce the federal law.  

i left the link for the AZ law on here.....probably a good idea to read it before forming an opinion.  
yes kathy...as i said, i'm going to read it later today when i have a longer break...but my question remains unanwered...was the quote that david posted from the law?

deknow
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deknow
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« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2010, 12:15:17 PM »

 the army doc would have been a good candidate.  he would have fit into any logical parameters for picking up and insider terrorist.  because we are so PC, we looked for some other, any other, explanation for his behavior.  

he is an extreme example, but i'm betting not the only one who is missed because "we don't profile".

there is no question that PC attitudes kept the army doc from being looked at closer...there was no need to profile him, if he was looked at objectively (not as a muslim), there would be neither an inherent suspicion of him, or a fear of offending him to look closer...this is where we need to be.

...and jihad jane is an example of one we almost missed because we do profile.

deknow
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« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2010, 12:20:47 PM »

As expected....... When they don't know the right, then they do "KNOW" the wrong is right.
honestly, i don't understand what you are saying here.  either you are convinced that there is (or was) a law that require(d) that citizens carry ss cards at all times (despite the fact that it is/never was the case), or you realize that it was a mistake on your part.

there are lots of things we can agree to disagree on, but all available evidence shows that your statement about the ss law was incorrect.  i'm not sure why you are lashing out at me for helping get the facts straight...no one is helped by spreading mistruths.

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iddee
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« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2010, 12:34:01 PM »

If your facts were true, I would agree.
I have seen people jailed for not carrying ID's. At one time, a young man was required to carry his SS card and his selective service card, and if over 21, be in possession of a minimum amount of cash. At the time, it was 2.00. You may be right about the law today, but you are definitely wrong about what it was in the past.
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« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2010, 01:04:03 PM »

I am 56 years old. Back in the day we didn't get Social security cards until we started our first jobs, because we needed it for SS tax. I think I finally got one when I was 16 or 17 I think.

I never heard of a law mandating you had to carry one. It use to be against the law to use the Social Security card as a form of ID. It was for the sole purpose of Social Security, nothing more. Use to say it right on the card. Anyone have an old card from way back then? Look at it.
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« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2010, 01:12:49 PM »

jihad jane didn't need profiling.  she plastered her intent all over the internet.  i don't think they almost lost her.  they needed intent to arrest her and make something stick.  just being stupid is not reason to arrest someone....unfortunatly.

profiling does not mean that you ignore anyone.  it does give you a chance to look more closely at those who are most likely to be the bad guys.  instead of spreading all resources equally in the  name of fairness, you allocate more resources toward the main threat.  nothing will allow us to catch all who do harm, but if we refuse to pay more attention to the real threats, we will miss attacks.  as we see more of these small cell attacks in the us, it will become more and more important to stay ahead of them. 

it also does not mean that you have to go about spying on everyone.  i have seen law enforcement in other countries very openly take certain passengers aside for interview.  people flying in these countries know that this is done.  there is no fuss about it.  i'd like to not have that happen here, but our security is an illusion.  we are at war and many still don't seem to get it.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2010, 09:23:04 PM »

David, you're right, you DON'T understand limited government.  ....

OK, first of all how about consider that this is "The Coffee House" not firing line and lets try to keep it somewhat civil?

Most of your response emphasizes that illegal immigration is a problem - which I agree with.  It's a big problem.  As a country we have a whole laundry list of big problems.  I agree that the federal government should take more responsibility for this particular big problem, and that the failure to act by the feds has caused a crisis that the border states feel that they have to do something about - and rightfully so.

I can't resist responding to your "Unless you do something like construction work you don't know what it's like..."  (paraphrased)  Well, it just so happens that I'm a contractor.  My Dad is a retired contractor.  My brother is a contractor.  My father in law is a contractor.  My brother in law is a contractor.  I have 2 uncles that are contractors, and a couple of first cousins that are in the business.  I'm talking dirty hands contractors not guys in khakis and hardhats carrying clip boards.  I started carrying shingles up a ladder when I was 15.  I know the construction worker blues first hand.  I started my first construction business when I was 26.  I've had to deal with competition from every kind of unlicensed, undocumented, uninsured fly by night that you can think of - including some that speak fluent Spanish.

Nonetheless, I do live in the interior of the country, and I will concede that I haven't experienced first hand the sense of invasion that the border areas have.  You're right about that.

About the Arizona law - I agree with 99.44% of it - not that anyone in Arizona gives a flip what I think about their law.  I think the part about it now being against the law to nod while being Hispanic is a bit odd, vague, and excessive, but again who cares what I think?

Mainly I don't want myself, or any American to be subject to illegal search and seizure because of the way we look, talk, dress, tattoos, hair, slogans on our tee-shirt, hat, or bumper.  And I think that the constitution protects us from that -  As long as we don't throw it away every time we have a big problem like immigration, terrorism, drug trafficking, or whatever the current big scary threat to the world as we know it is.


But anyway, if you don't have anything to hide what do you care?  Do you want The Government to be able to read your mail, or listen to your phone conversations, track your buying habits, look at your medical records?  I don't, and I don't have anything to hide.  I just don't trust anyone all that much.  And I like my privacy.  I'm glad that the constitution protects it to some extent, and I don't want to give that protection up even a little bit - for me or my descendants.  Put it this way - I don't want to be part of the generation that gave up our constitutional protections.

I must admit that it would sure be easier if every time there was a threat we could just round up everyone who looks suspicious, ignore due process, and do something with them that makes us feel all safe again.  Like we did to Japanese Americans during WW2.  The trouble is it isn't constitutional.  And it isn't right or moral either.  So as long as you can somehow ignore those minor details then everything gets easier don't it?


Personally I think that two words in the AZ law infringe on those rights - reasonable suspicion.  If it said Probable Cause in a few places instead all would be good - except the illegal nodding thing.   But again, I'm not a constitutional scholar - just a building contractor with a 12th grade education. So - A) I could be wrong. B) Who cares what I think?

Oh, wait.  It seems that quite a lot (not all of course) of the AZ law enforcement community more or less agree with me.  Maybe they're all liberal shills too?

Do you really think that anyone who disagrees with you is just brain washed by the liberal media and couldn't possibly put any serious thought into their own beliefs?
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David LaFerney
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« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2010, 09:44:38 PM »

yes kathy...as i said, i'm going to read it later today when i have a longer break...but my question remains unanwered...was the quote that david posted from the law?

deknow

Yes it was.
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« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2010, 09:54:03 PM »

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against the law to nod while being Hispanic

what?Huh

Quote
Do you want The Government to be able to read your mail, or listen to your phone conversations, track your buying habits, look at your medical records?

they already do and will do more under the guise of the health care reform.  but hey....it's all for the greater good.
Quote
I must admit that it would sure be easier if every time there was a threat we could just round up everyone who looks suspicious, ignore due process, and do something with them that makes us feel all safe again.  Like we did to Japanese Americans during WW2.  The trouble is it isn't constitutional.  And it isn't right or moral either.  So as long as you can somehow ignore those minor details then everything gets easier don't it?


and who has suggested this? 

Quote
Oh, wait.  It seems that quite a lot (not all of course) of the AZ law enforcement community more or less agree with me.  Maybe they're all liberal shills too?

really?  what makes you say that?  i know some do, but quite a lot?  since they are the one cleaning up the mess on the streets, i'd be willing to bet that it's just the opposite.  i have not seen that they have been polled.  even if they had been, their  job is to uphold the law, not like it.

Quote
reasonable suspicion

i am not a lawyer, but how is that different than probable cause?

i actually think that most liberals are well meaning.  they generally lack an understanding of history and what the constitution says.  they tend to put emotion before fact.  that doesn't make them bad people.  to the contrary, most are really good people.  they just don't engage in a lot of lateral thinking and extrapolation.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2010, 10:49:29 PM »

Well, say what you will, I'd rather have laws like this one to be on a state by state basis where the reach is limited than have the federal government spread its icy fingers into every state uniformly whether it is needed or not!!

I get so sick of mayors of cities like St. Paul, mn and san fransisco complaining about Arizona.  Shut up unless you are suffering from the same stuff!!
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« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2010, 11:53:15 PM »

Quote
OK, first of all how about consider that this is "The Coffee House" not firing line and lets try to keep it somewhat civil?

 huh I'm sorry.  Was I uncivil?  Don't mistake passion for uncivility.  My grandchildren aren't going to grow up in the same country I did because of the maddening lack of understanding of and respect for the constitution.  What is worse is the selective "protection" of constitutional principles.  The same people that scream about "civil liberties" (a-la the ACLU) are the same people who happily tread all over the rights of those who don't agree with their far left liberal socialist agenda.  Virtually all of the liberal garbage that is foisted upon us as Americans came from a liberal Supreme Court legislating from the bench (i.e. prayer in schools, abortion, so-called "civil rights", etc...)  This nation is NOT a liberal nation, yet it somehow keeps lurching left.  When a state makes an attempt to right the ship, these same "do-gooders" cry "profiling!! You're trampling these poor, down-trodden minorities' rights!"  with never a thought of the rights of the the people of AZ who happen to be LEGAL CITIZENS!!!   angry
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« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2010, 09:41:33 AM »



i actually think that most liberals are well meaning.  they generally lack an understanding of history and what the constitution says.  they tend to put emotion before fact.  that doesn't make them bad people.  to the contrary, most are really good people.  they just don't engage in a lot of lateral thinking and extrapolation.

That’s a good one.  I have a similar observation:  “Humans seem to often stereotype large groups of people (most of whom they have never met) with broad and often condescending or derogatory generalities.” Do you think that this behavior is because of an innate human need to believe that a person’s own tribe is superior? Or, from a desire to find justification - no matter how unsubstantial - for a particular worldview?  Or, maybe both?  Or perhaps some other reason?

Sorry, as much fun as this is I don't have much time right now....
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« Reply #58 on: May 05, 2010, 09:43:25 AM »

Quote
OK, first of all how about consider that this is "The Coffee House" not firing line and lets try to keep it somewhat civil?

 huh I'm sorry.  Was I uncivil?  Don't mistake passion for uncivility.  

Thanks, no problem.
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« Reply #59 on: May 05, 2010, 10:03:34 AM »

>>>>That’s a good one.  I have a similar observation:  “Humans seem to often stereotype large groups of people (most of whom they have never met) with broad and often condescending or derogatory generalities.”<<<<

You better believe it. If you are an active, dues paying member of the KKK, I am going to think you are likely a bit prejudiced against certain groups of people. You may have just joined to see what it looked like from the inside, out of curiosity, but I doubt it.

If it quacks like a duck...............ETC.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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