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Author Topic: Gun Ban Sign  (Read 11392 times)
Jerrymac
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« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2010, 10:07:33 PM »

The point being, it is a felony. But should one be denied the right to bare arms because he smashed a mail box?
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kathyp
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« Reply #61 on: April 29, 2010, 10:34:16 PM »

the argument might be made that someone who shows such poor judgment ought not to be carrying a gun.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #62 on: April 29, 2010, 10:38:29 PM »

I would sure like to meet the person that never made a poor judgment.
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Vibe
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« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2010, 11:12:20 PM »

I would sure like to meet the person that never made a poor judgment.
Like wise. In another thread on another site there is a growing collection of quotes on life. One of them is...
Good judgment comes from experience, which comes from learning from your mistakes, and in some case the mistakes of others...most of which come from poor judgment.
And then there was the poor man who, during a trip to Mexico, was found to have a few rounds of ammunition in the trunk of his car. He was convicted in Mexican court and sentenced - the US had to negotiate his release and return. And even though he was an FFL dealer, and had broken not a single US law - is now considered a convicted felon and had lost ALL of his rights - and therefore his livelihood. So it's like I alluded to - "Crazy" and "felon" are terms that sometimes depends upon whom is making that determination as to whether or not I agree to the disqualification.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 11:23:20 PM by Vibe » Logged

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bluegrass
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« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2010, 08:06:15 AM »

I am friends with a Ex-con. Interesting story his is and no he cannot Vote, cannot own a gun, has a really hard time getting a job that is anything more than day labor.

The short version is he hung with the wrong crowd in his teens early 20s. He got into a fight with a guy who then pulled a gun on him, he grabbed the gun and spun it around and it went off hitting the guy in the head. The guy survived, but was really messed up. He got charged with attempted man slaughter, plead not guilty with self defense as his defense, even with live witnesses the DA prosecuted him for attempted man slaughter and he got 10 years. He paroled after three and has been out for over 30 years now, but he is still effected by that incident in his everyday life.   

30 years ago self defense was a lot easier to prove than it is today. If I have to defend myself or family against anybody I will do everything in my power to make that defense as non-lethal as possible. Aim for the knees. 
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c10250
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« Reply #65 on: April 30, 2010, 09:11:42 AM »


Now back on the gun control issue: Democrats have controlled congress for the last 4 years and not a single gun control bill has been passed. The Federal Government has not passed a gun control law in about 16 years. Most of our gun laws are local and most gun owners completely over look that fact.

 

You are wrong on that.  Starting this year, we can now carry weapons in Federal parks.  Thank you Obama smiley
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Vibe
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« Reply #66 on: April 30, 2010, 09:19:34 AM »



You are wrong on that.  Starting this year, we can now carry weapons in Federal parks.  Thank you Obama smiley
Obamo had nothing to do with that bit of progress. Other than putting in on hold for a bit in his first few days in office.
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2010, 12:00:02 PM »

Jerry you're right, a felony conviction where a stiff fine would work is excessive.
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marksmith
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« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2010, 03:34:45 PM »

I got in a tussle with 3 big guys in Southern California (San Bernadino or however you spell it)

The DA did not press charges... but I was detained on FELONY assault.  The arrest record is PERMANENT.  Fast forward a few years and I am getting my Utah concealed license... seems the record of my being arrested under that charge is enough to throw it out of the system and them keeping my 65$ for processing. Oregon does not have a problem with my arrest, just as long as I wasn't convicted. (OR CHL holder for 4 years now)


As a felon you have the right to appeal to get your voting and gun rights back.  This very reason is why it is allowed. Your convicted of a felony, you appeal to get your rights reinstated, a board either approves or denies it. I am ALL for felons not having the right to own guns or being able to vote.
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Mark Smith - Elkton, OR
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« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2010, 04:14:48 PM »

I think it's fair to dispute what should be considered a felony, or 'mentally defective', where the risk is revoking "God given" rights to a free citizen.
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joker1656
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« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2010, 04:26:49 PM »

Quote
If I have to defend myself or family against anybody I will do everything in my power to make that defense as non-lethal as possible. Aim for the knees.

Really?!!?  REEALLLY?!?!  What kind of logic is that?  Non-lethal (we wont go into the definitions here) and you AIM for the knees.  If lethal force is justified.....it is JUSTIFIED.  You don't use a friggin gun to defend yourself in a "NON"-lethal situation.  Sheeesh!
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Vibe
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« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2010, 04:52:47 PM »

As a felon you have the right to appeal to get your voting and gun rights back.  This very reason is why it is allowed. Your convicted of a felony, you appeal to get your rights reinstated, a board either approves or denies it. I am ALL for felons not having the right to own guns or being able to vote.
You may have the right to appeal, to the BATFE (by the way, as they are the ones in charge of those appeals) - But the BATFE has no funding allocated for that purpose, so NONE of those appeals will get processed. And SCOTUS has ruled that this is NOT an infringement upon your Right to a Redress of Grievances. So basically you are still screwed.
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kathyp
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« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2010, 05:11:01 PM »

Quote
30 years ago self defense was a lot easier to prove than it is today. If I have to defend myself or family against anybody I will do everything in my power to make that defense as non-lethal as possible. Aim for the knees. 


don't bother then.  if you need to shoot, shoot to kill.  if you don't you'll at the least be hit with a civil suit for this guys disability.  a dead guy has a harder time disputing your need to kill him.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
c10250
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« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2010, 10:32:52 PM »



You are wrong on that.  Starting this year, we can now carry weapons in Federal parks.  Thank you Obama smiley
Obamo had nothing to do with that bit of progress. Other than putting in on hold for a bit in his first few days in office.

He could have put a permanent hold on it . . . . again, thank you Obama for not doing so.
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kathyp
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« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2010, 11:19:24 PM »

so now we are thanking him for what he didn't do?  there are a lot more things i'd like to have been thanking him for............
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #75 on: May 01, 2010, 03:56:03 AM »

I know a man who was one of those stupid criminals.  He commited a bank robbery using a beat up bucket of bolts that often wouldn't start.  He rushed out of the bank, climbed into his get away car, and it wouldn't start.  He was sentenced to 15 years for armed robbery.  He was also a well tattooed member of the Hells Angels at the time.

Fastforward a decade.  He got out of prison, paid restitution to the bank for its losses (it got the money back), paid a fine that was part of the sentence, and got a job pitching garbage cans.  He worked hard, got married, had 2 daughters.  He wrote a letter to his state governer, along with papers showing the restitution, the paid fine, his work history since getting out of prison, a copy of his marriage certificate and the birth certificates of both daughters, and a CIC (Criminal Information Center report showing no record since his release.  His was granted a pardon by the governer and then had his voting, gun ownership, and other revoked rights restored to him via court order.

The thing is he did what needed to be done.  He paid up, he kept on the straight and narrow and then went about having his criminal record expunged and his legal rights restored in the proper legal manner via those with the power and authority to so act.

As a felon you have the right to appeal to get your voting and gun rights back.  This very reason is why it is allowed. Your convicted of a felony, you appeal to get your rights reinstated, a board either approves or denies it. I am ALL for felons not having the right to own guns or being able to vote.
You may have the right to appeal, to the BATFE (by the way, as they are the ones in charge of those appeals) - But the BATFE has no funding allocated for that purpose, so NONE of those appeals will get processed. And SCOTUS has ruled that this is NOT an infringement upon your Right to a Redress of Grievances. So basically you are still screwed.

The BATFE has no legal authority to revoke or re-instat anyones legal rights.  They are an enforcement orginization only.
The right to appeal exists but it MUST be done either through the court system or by those with the power and authority to grant legal immunity, abatement, or pardon.

I also know of persons who have served sentences for felony crimes (some I put there) and they have done all that needs to be done to have their legal rights restored except petition the proper authorities for redress.  If you don't ask it ain't going to happen.
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Vibe
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« Reply #76 on: May 01, 2010, 09:22:51 AM »

The BATFE has no legal authority to revoke or re-instat anyones legal rights.  They are an enforcement orginization only.
The right to appeal exists but it MUST be done either through the court system or by those with the power and authority to grant legal immunity, abatement, or pardon.

I also know of persons who have served sentences for felony crimes (some I put there) and they have done all that needs to be done to have their legal rights restored except petition the proper authorities for redress.  If you don't ask it ain't going to happen.


Even Governors pardons are reviewed, and sometimes denied by the BATFE. That are the branch that DOES have the Congressional and Dept. of the Treasury final authority in the matter. At least according to SCOTUS.


http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_Restoration.shtm
Quote
State restoration of all civil rights does not remove the disabilities imposed as a result of a federal conviction. The supreme court has held that persons convicted of federal felonies remain subject to the federal firearms disability until their rights are restored through a federal, not state, procedure.  For more information concerning this process please contact the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.


http://www.dailycourt.com/articles/index/id/6442
Quote
a 1998 U.S. Supreme Court decision determined that the federal government may only accept complete restoration of firearm rights, he said, noting that this ruling was one basis of the 2008 review and decision by the BATFE.


http://www.burger.com/gunbeana.htm
Quote
There is a procedure for having one's gun rights restored. That procedure is found at 18 USC § 925(c). The Fifth Circuit discussed the origins of this section at footnote 9 of its decision, Bean v. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, 253 F. 3d. 234, 238 (5th Cir. 2001), rev'd,  537 U.S. 71, 123 S.Ct. 584, 154 L.Ed.2d. 483, (2002). The footnote explains that, according to the Congressional Record,  Senator Frank Lautenberg, one of the co-sponsors of the legislation, noted that the original relief provision was enacted to rescue Winchester Firearms Company, whose parent corporation, Olin Winchester, had pleaded guilty to felony counts on a kickback scheme. Corporations are considered "persons" under the law for most purposes. Thus, unless an exception for felons was enacted, Winchester Firearms Company could not possess firearms or ammunition, and its very existence was threatened. Under § 925(c) a felon (even a corporation) can apply to the Secretary of Treasury for relief from the effect of § 922 (g)(1). The Secretary of Treasury is empowered to restore firearms privileges "if it is established to [the Secretary's] satisfaction that the circumstances regarding the disability, and the applicant's record and reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety and that the granting of the relief would not be contrary to the public interest." 18 USC § 925(c).

The Secretary has delegated this power to the BATF. The statute also provides that, should the application for relief from disabilities be denied, the applicant can appeal to a U.S. District Court. 18 USC § 925(c).

At first, the BATF performed its duties. However, according the Fifth Circuit (253 F. 3d. at 237), in late 1991 the Washington Post ran stories and editorials claiming felons were being rearmed under the statute. In the Senate a bill entitled "Stop Arming Felons Act" was introduced to repeal the relief provision. Although the bill never made it out of the Judiciary Committee, the House and Senate Appropriations Committees proposed language in 1992 to prohibit expenditure of any funds to "investigate or act upon applications for relief from Federal firearms disabilities under 18 USC § 925(c)." Congress has imposed similar funding restrictions every year since.



I suppose there might be some things we could "thank" Hitler, Mao, and Stalin for NOT doing as well.
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bluegrass
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« Reply #77 on: May 01, 2010, 09:57:14 AM »

Maurice Clemmins was serving a 108 year sentence for armed robbery when Mike Huckabee pardoned him. He then went and executed four cops.

Sorry I completely disagree with the power of pardon. The only way any violent criminal should get out of a sentence is through parole or appeal.

On the non-lethal defense issue: If you defend yourself and then spend the rest of your life in prison then being a survivor is highly over rated. There are many less than lethal rounds available to the public. It is a safe bet that you will not get charged with attempted manslaughter for firing rubber buckshot or a bean bag. The person you are shooting at is not going to know the difference when they get shot with a rubber bullet. they will think they are dead.   
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Vibe
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« Reply #78 on: May 01, 2010, 10:17:03 AM »

Sorry I completely disagree with the power of pardon. The only way any violent criminal should get out of a sentence is through parole or appeal.
I have mixed views on that power - though I agree that one was not a wise use of it.
I'm more concerned with the mechanisms used to strip the rights in the first place.
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kathyp
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« Reply #79 on: May 01, 2010, 10:35:38 AM »

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Maurice Clemmins was serving a 108 year sentence for armed robbery when Mike Huckabee pardoned him. He then went and executed four cops.

a distinction might be made between someone who is in prision and someone who has been released and had years to prove that they have changed.  in general, i am not in favor of pardons, however i have my exceptions.  we all have probably heard of people who have been released from jail because of new evidence, but the record takes years to clear.  that would be a case for pardon, i think.... 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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