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Author Topic: We the People Video  (Read 2697 times)
Sparky
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« on: April 07, 2010, 09:04:49 PM »

NosPopulus | We The People | CD Baby
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AllenF
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« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2010, 09:13:09 PM »

He's making us slaves to the system.   We are all growing dependent on the government.  If he gets voted out of office have of us will have to pay takes.   Look at this.

"Obama has pushed tax cuts for low- and middle-income families and tax increases for the wealthy, arguing that wealthier taxpayers fared well in the past decade, so it's time to pay up. The nation's wealthiest taxpayers did get big tax breaks under Bush, with the top marginal tax rate reduced from 39.6 percent to 35 percent, and the second-highest rate reduced from 36 percent to 33 percent.

But income tax rates were lowered at every income level. The changes made it relatively easy for families of four making $50,000 to eliminate their income tax liability.

Here's how they did it, according to Deloitte Tax:

The family was entitled to a standard deduction of $11,400 and four personal exemptions of $3,650 apiece, leaving a taxable income of $24,000. The federal income tax on $24,000 is $2,769.

With two children younger than 17, the family qualified for two $1,000 child tax credits. Its Making Work Pay credit was $800 because the parents were married filing jointly.

The $2,800 in credits exceeds the $2,769 in taxes, so the family makes a $31 profit from the federal income tax."

That's from someone making $50 grand.  The "give me something for nothing" will run out and hit up hard soon.
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2010, 08:09:52 PM »



Isn't it a bit 'twee'
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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2010, 08:36:57 PM »

it might contain concepts outside your ability to understand.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2010, 04:41:25 AM »

it might contain concepts outside your ability to understand.


The concept I cannot get my head round is the people voted the guy in and now don't like his policies? The truism is, you get the government you deserve. Its still twee and OTT though. Change the policies/laws at the next election, isn't that democracy? or is that too complicated a concept for me to understand? Smiley
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Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2010, 09:31:15 AM »

it might contain concepts outside your ability to understand.


The concept I cannot get my head round is the people voted the guy in and now don't like his policies? The truism is, you get the government you deserve. Its still twee and OTT though. Change the policies/laws at the next election, isn't that democracy? or is that too complicated a concept for me to understand? Smiley

I think it's safe to say that most of the people complaining are the people who didn't vote for him.  Heck, if I'm interpreting this right, Allen F. is even complaining because Obama cut taxes!.  I think we should be complaining about him rasing taxes and running up deficits.  I'm all for cutting taxes and spending.

Ken
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2010, 10:16:56 AM »

1st, we are not a democracy.  2nd, many who voted for him are now unhappy also.  that includes many on the far left.  no one should be surprised at what they got.  even though he ran as a moderate, anyone who had taken a second to look at his background would have known better.  that was the fault of the people for not checking, and the conspiracy of the media who actually supported his campaign.
so far, he has managed to break every single promise he's made.  that is quite a feat!

i don't know that you get what you deserve.  you do get what you elect.  we doubled down by electing a majority of the same party in both houses. unfortunately, the leadership of both houses happen to be 'progressives'.  progressive is American code word for socialist.  the American Socialists claim on their site that, not being able to be elected as socialists, it is the progressives and unions they work through.

 all this gave a man who is often called a socialist, but raised a communist, free reign to "remake" (his words) America.  

so, hey...the socialists are happy  grin

in your county you elect a party and then they pretty much run things the way they see fit.  in this country we elect representatives who, even though they can do as they please, are supposed to be representatives of the people.  Congress represent their districts. Senate represent their states as a whole.  so far, it looks like the entire place has forgotten that they work for us and not for the president or the government.




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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2010, 09:31:47 PM »

People voted for him without really understanding what they were voting for - they were just busy voting for 'anyone but Bush'.  Obama said exactly what he was going to do, I loved hearing what a centrist he was, because the words coming out of his mouth screamed left-wing liberal who would love to drag us to socialism.  And it isn't just those who didn't vote for him who are complaining now, many who did vote for him are appalled at what they've done.  Buyers' remorse runs rampant in the Democratic circles, too.
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2010, 07:08:10 AM »

1st, we are not a democracy.  


What? 
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« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2010, 08:35:57 AM »

1st, we are not a democracy.  


What? 

Now we are getting to the heart of the matter, it may suit some people that the country is perceived not to be a demoracy! to draw in support? Wink
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Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2010, 10:06:34 AM »

we never were.  we are a representative republic.  or, if you prefer, a republic with a representative form of government.  our founders kicked around the idea of a democracy and decided it would not work.  nothing would ever get done  smiley  they did not choose a parliamentary form of government because it leaves to much power in the government and takes the control of the representatives away from the people.

they chose a direct representation so that people could send to congress those who would act in their interest.  they made it easy to replace house members (thankfully) so we could toss those who were not doing their job.  a little harder to replace senators so that petty local politics did not overturn the representation of the states and to keep congress from going nuts with legislation. 

govt 101.  cider is excused for not understanding our govt.   Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2010, 11:06:24 AM »

Representative democracy is still democracy. 
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2010, 11:14:29 AM »

no, it's really not.  democracy is one man one vote.  that is not how things are done at either the state or federal level.  we democratically elect our representatives.  after that, they do the voting.  if it were one man one vote, this health care abomination would not have passed.....as an example.

one thought:  the referendum system that some states have is democratic.  it does not apply to all things.  Arnold tried to bring a lot of things to the people for referendum voting, but it got expensive and people got tired of it.  guess democracy is not a cure for lazy voters.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2010, 11:37:27 AM »

In true democracy the majority rules.

Two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat = lamb chops for dinner.

In our represented republic form, the right of the one is protected from the many. So go eat grass.

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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2010, 04:51:43 PM »

In true democracy the majority rules.

Two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat = lamb chops for dinner.

In our represented republic form, the right of the one is protected from the many. So go eat grass.



Exactly. 
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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2010, 05:12:08 PM »

and they are to legislate within the constraints of the constitution, which was designed  to keep them from interfering with the liberties on all americans.   the primary function of the constitution is to limit the federal government.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2010, 06:14:54 PM »

In true democracy the majority rules.

Two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat = lamb chops for dinner.

In our represented republic form, the right of the one is protected from the many. So go eat grass.



Exactly. 
But - Jerry was affirming Kathy's statement that we are a representative democracy, not a true democracy.  If we were a true democracy, one person one vote, there are quite a few things that would never have happened - the ending of slavery, for example, or gay marriage (it wouldn't be the mess it is because it just never would pass) or any number of other 'civil rights' issues.  The majority would rule, and the minority, or the downtrodden, or whatever, would stay that way. 

As for whether or not it is working now no, I don't believe it is.  The power is on the side of the government, lopsidedly, in direct opposition to what it's supposed to be, as protected by that so-ignored document, the Constitution.
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« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2010, 07:02:25 PM »

slavery, put to a popular vote, would have been easily ended.  lincoln switched to the republican party primarily because of his stand on slavery.  not ending it, but not allowing new territories and states to be slave states.  by the time lincoln was elected, the corporate export and farming concerns (british and french) were gone or much smaller.  most businesses and farms were in the hands of americans and those tended to be smaller and family concerns.  even for large plantation owners, slavery was becoming very expensive.  most americans outside the south did not support slavery.  it was a very powerful southern lobby that kept it legal. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2010, 08:38:09 PM »

I don't know about that Kathy, there were quite a few slaves up here in the North, it's a dirty little secret that isn't talked about much.  But that wasn't my point - I was supporting what you said about representative democracy. 
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« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2010, 09:12:23 PM »

But - Jerry was affirming Kathy's statement that we are a representative democracy, not a true democracy.  If we were a true democracy, one person one vote, there are quite a few things that would never have happened - the ending of slavery, for example, or gay marriage (it wouldn't be the mess it is because it just never would pass) or any number of other 'civil rights' issues.  The majority would rule, and the minority, or the downtrodden, or whatever, would stay that way. 

As for whether or not it is working now no, I don't believe it is.  The power is on the side of the government, lopsidedly, in direct opposition to what it's supposed to be, as protected by that so-ignored document, the Constitution.

We are a representative democracy - which is a true form of democracy.  No it isn't "Pure Democracy" in that we don't all vote on every issue. But it is a democracy in my opinion and also in the opinions of most all definitions that I could quickly Google up.  I just liked the illustration of the prime merit of our representative system that Jerry gave.

It isn't perfect, and it never was.  We all get frustrated with the perceived unfairness when our position is on the losing side or when our majority is having to deal with a recalcitrant minority.  But then when the positions are reversed we all appreciate why the system is designed to give some degree of protection to the minority.  The framers knew it was a compromise system which would usually never please everyone at any given time - which is exactly why it has worked for so long. Pure democracy probably would not.
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« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2010, 09:30:18 PM »

Quote
We all get frustrated with the perceived unfairness when our position is on the losing side or when our majority is having to deal with a recalcitrant minority

i can only speak for myself, but this is not the source of my anger.  god knows i have been through enough admins that i didn't agree with.  i have never felt that the government was intentionally trying to destroy the fabric and founding of our country...until now.  i don't think we even have to suppose this.  we only need to  hear their words and look at the people who surround them.  if we understand where they, and in particular our president, have come from, we know where they want to go.  you can  not embrace marxist ideology and surround yourself with those who embrace marxist ideology, then say you support the american way of life as we have known it. 

so i am angry, yes.   not because of a disagreement between republicans and democrats, but because of a disagreement between the communist ideology and the capitalist ideology.  and i am angry that the american people were to stupid to do their own  homework before handing this inexperienced child so much power.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2010, 10:37:23 PM »

It isn't perfect, and it never was.  We all get frustrated with the perceived unfairness when our position is on the losing side or when our majority is having to deal with a recalcitrant minority.  But then when the positions are reversed we all appreciate why the system is designed to give some degree of protection to the minority.  The framers knew it was a compromise system which would usually never please everyone at any given time - which is exactly why it has worked for so long. Pure democracy probably would not.


It is not about unfairness. It is about politicians paying no heed to the fact that the Constitution was written to "limit" the powers of the federal government.

Nothing more,nothing less.Dumbing down the population is the best way to overstep the restrictions the Constitution has placed upon the representatives.Just find a young kid and ask if they know what the "Bill Of Rights"is.Chances are the school has not spent much time on it.
  Another  way is to appoint activist judges that"legislate" from the bench.
The states have been irresponsible by letting the Feds assume powers that were to be powers of the states.If we do not rescind some of the power the federal government has taken upon itself,we will soon be enslaved by it.
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« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2010, 02:38:59 AM »

Representative democracy is still democracy.  

Thank You!
It suits some people to misconstrue others idea of democracy, for political ends. There lies chaos.
cider is still attempting to understand the concept of multiple definitions of democracy, one mans 'democracy' can be anothers fascistism. Wink its still twee though.
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« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2010, 09:00:16 AM »

I do not think the term Democracy is in the constitution.

But the term Republican form of government is.

Article IV
Section 4

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
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« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2010, 09:09:10 AM »

Here you go


http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html


Quote
An Important Distinction: Democracy versus Republic

It is important to keep in mind the difference between a Democracy and a Republic, as dissimilar forms of government. Understanding the difference is essential to comprehension of the fundamentals involved. It should be noted, in passing, that use of the word Democracy as meaning merely the popular type of government--that is, featuring genuinely free elections by the people periodically--is not helpful in discussing, as here, the difference between alternative and dissimilar forms of a popular government: a Democracy versus a Republic. This double meaning of Democracy--a popular-type government in general, as well as a specific form of popular government--needs to be made clear in any discussion, or writing, regarding this subject, for the sake of sound understanding.

These two forms of government: Democracy and Republic, are not only dissimilar but antithetical, reflecting the sharp contrast between (a) The Majority Unlimited, in a Democracy, lacking any legal safeguard of the rights of The Individual and The Minority, and (b) The Majority Limited, in a Republic under a written Constitution safeguarding the rights of The Individual and The Minority; as we shall now see.


Then it goes into the description of each.
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« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2010, 10:09:46 AM »

Here you go


http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html


Quote
An Important Distinction: Democracy versus Republic

It is important to keep in mind the difference between a Democracy and a Republic, as dissimilar forms of government. Understanding the difference is essential to comprehension of the fundamentals involved. It should be noted, in passing, that use of the word Democracy as meaning merely the popular type of government--that is, featuring genuinely free elections by the people periodically--is not helpful in discussing, as here, the difference between alternative and dissimilar forms of a popular government: a Democracy versus a Republic. This double meaning of Democracy--a popular-type government in general, as well as a specific form of popular government--needs to be made clear in any discussion, or writing, regarding this subject, for the sake of sound understanding.

These two forms of government: Democracy and Republic, are not only dissimilar but antithetical, reflecting the sharp contrast between (a) The Majority Unlimited, in a Democracy, lacking any legal safeguard of the rights of The Individual and The Minority, and (b) The Majority Limited, in a Republic under a written Constitution safeguarding the rights of The Individual and The Minority; as we shall now see.


Then it goes into the description of each.


So, is that from an impartial source?
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« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2010, 10:36:52 AM »

sounds good so far.  that's why representative republic is more accurate than representative democracy although i have heard both used by constitutional scholars.
representative republic might be more accurate in distinguishing us form parliamentary forms of government which are representative but not accountable.

Websters:  republic:  b (1) : a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law.


cider it's 'one mans' socialism is another  mans' fascism'.  you don't get to fascism from democracy.  fascism and socialism/communism are almost indistinguishable in most things.  both Stalin and Hitler made that point as the signed their non aggression treaty.
 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2010, 03:18:53 PM »

If anybody has one, there use to be definitions of the two in old military training manuals.

I think they had to be before 1970 but not sure. Just another deletion by the government so they can instill their own ideas into the minds of new recruits.
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« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2010, 09:23:11 PM »

Representative democracy is still democracy.  

Thank You!
It suits some people to misconstrue others idea of democracy, for political ends. There lies chaos.
cider is still attempting to understand the concept of multiple definitions of democracy, one mans 'democracy' can be anothers fascistism. Wink its still twee though.
Regards
I am not misconstruing anything, that insinuates some kind of dishonesty on my part.  I disagree with what you are saying.  And I will say it again, we do not have a true 'democracy', one person, one vote.  It is a representative republic, and there is a demonstrable difference between the two.

'And to the Republic, for which we stand'.
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