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Author Topic: We the People Video  (Read 2867 times)
Sparky
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« on: April 07, 2010, 09:04:49 PM »

NosPopulus | We The People | CD Baby
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AllenF
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« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2010, 09:13:09 PM »

He's making us slaves to the system.   We are all growing dependent on the government.  If he gets voted out of office have of us will have to pay takes.   Look at this.

"Obama has pushed tax cuts for low- and middle-income families and tax increases for the wealthy, arguing that wealthier taxpayers fared well in the past decade, so it's time to pay up. The nation's wealthiest taxpayers did get big tax breaks under Bush, with the top marginal tax rate reduced from 39.6 percent to 35 percent, and the second-highest rate reduced from 36 percent to 33 percent.

But income tax rates were lowered at every income level. The changes made it relatively easy for families of four making $50,000 to eliminate their income tax liability.

Here's how they did it, according to Deloitte Tax:

The family was entitled to a standard deduction of $11,400 and four personal exemptions of $3,650 apiece, leaving a taxable income of $24,000. The federal income tax on $24,000 is $2,769.

With two children younger than 17, the family qualified for two $1,000 child tax credits. Its Making Work Pay credit was $800 because the parents were married filing jointly.

The $2,800 in credits exceeds the $2,769 in taxes, so the family makes a $31 profit from the federal income tax."

That's from someone making $50 grand.  The "give me something for nothing" will run out and hit up hard soon.
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cidersabuzzin
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2010, 08:09:52 PM »



Isn't it a bit 'twee'
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Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...
kathyp
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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2010, 08:36:57 PM »

it might contain concepts outside your ability to understand.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
cidersabuzzin
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vroom... vroom... but more like phut** phut**!


« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2010, 04:41:25 AM »

it might contain concepts outside your ability to understand.


The concept I cannot get my head round is the people voted the guy in and now don't like his policies? The truism is, you get the government you deserve. Its still twee and OTT though. Change the policies/laws at the next election, isn't that democracy? or is that too complicated a concept for me to understand? Smiley
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Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...
c10250
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2010, 09:31:15 AM »

it might contain concepts outside your ability to understand.


The concept I cannot get my head round is the people voted the guy in and now don't like his policies? The truism is, you get the government you deserve. Its still twee and OTT though. Change the policies/laws at the next election, isn't that democracy? or is that too complicated a concept for me to understand? Smiley

I think it's safe to say that most of the people complaining are the people who didn't vote for him.  Heck, if I'm interpreting this right, Allen F. is even complaining because Obama cut taxes!.  I think we should be complaining about him rasing taxes and running up deficits.  I'm all for cutting taxes and spending.

Ken
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kathyp
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2010, 10:16:56 AM »

1st, we are not a democracy.  2nd, many who voted for him are now unhappy also.  that includes many on the far left.  no one should be surprised at what they got.  even though he ran as a moderate, anyone who had taken a second to look at his background would have known better.  that was the fault of the people for not checking, and the conspiracy of the media who actually supported his campaign.
so far, he has managed to break every single promise he's made.  that is quite a feat!

i don't know that you get what you deserve.  you do get what you elect.  we doubled down by electing a majority of the same party in both houses. unfortunately, the leadership of both houses happen to be 'progressives'.  progressive is American code word for socialist.  the American Socialists claim on their site that, not being able to be elected as socialists, it is the progressives and unions they work through.

 all this gave a man who is often called a socialist, but raised a communist, free reign to "remake" (his words) America.  

so, hey...the socialists are happy  grin

in your county you elect a party and then they pretty much run things the way they see fit.  in this country we elect representatives who, even though they can do as they please, are supposed to be representatives of the people.  Congress represent their districts. Senate represent their states as a whole.  so far, it looks like the entire place has forgotten that they work for us and not for the president or the government.




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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
reinbeau
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2010, 09:31:47 PM »

People voted for him without really understanding what they were voting for - they were just busy voting for 'anyone but Bush'.  Obama said exactly what he was going to do, I loved hearing what a centrist he was, because the words coming out of his mouth screamed left-wing liberal who would love to drag us to socialism.  And it isn't just those who didn't vote for him who are complaining now, many who did vote for him are appalled at what they've done.  Buyers' remorse runs rampant in the Democratic circles, too.
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David LaFerney
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2010, 07:08:10 AM »

1st, we are not a democracy.  


What? 
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

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cidersabuzzin
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vroom... vroom... but more like phut** phut**!


« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2010, 08:35:57 AM »

1st, we are not a democracy.  


What? 

Now we are getting to the heart of the matter, it may suit some people that the country is perceived not to be a demoracy! to draw in support? Wink
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Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...
kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2010, 10:06:34 AM »

we never were.  we are a representative republic.  or, if you prefer, a republic with a representative form of government.  our founders kicked around the idea of a democracy and decided it would not work.  nothing would ever get done  smiley  they did not choose a parliamentary form of government because it leaves to much power in the government and takes the control of the representatives away from the people.

they chose a direct representation so that people could send to congress those who would act in their interest.  they made it easy to replace house members (thankfully) so we could toss those who were not doing their job.  a little harder to replace senators so that petty local politics did not overturn the representation of the states and to keep congress from going nuts with legislation. 

govt 101.  cider is excused for not understanding our govt.   Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
David LaFerney
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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2010, 11:06:24 AM »

Representative democracy is still democracy. 
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

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kathyp
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2010, 11:14:29 AM »

no, it's really not.  democracy is one man one vote.  that is not how things are done at either the state or federal level.  we democratically elect our representatives.  after that, they do the voting.  if it were one man one vote, this health care abomination would not have passed.....as an example.

one thought:  the referendum system that some states have is democratic.  it does not apply to all things.  Arnold tried to bring a lot of things to the people for referendum voting, but it got expensive and people got tired of it.  guess democracy is not a cure for lazy voters.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2010, 11:37:27 AM »

In true democracy the majority rules.

Two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat = lamb chops for dinner.

In our represented republic form, the right of the one is protected from the many. So go eat grass.

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David LaFerney
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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2010, 04:51:43 PM »

In true democracy the majority rules.

Two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat = lamb chops for dinner.

In our represented republic form, the right of the one is protected from the many. So go eat grass.



Exactly. 
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

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kathyp
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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2010, 05:12:08 PM »

and they are to legislate within the constraints of the constitution, which was designed  to keep them from interfering with the liberties on all americans.   the primary function of the constitution is to limit the federal government.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
reinbeau
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« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2010, 06:14:54 PM »

In true democracy the majority rules.

Two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat = lamb chops for dinner.

In our represented republic form, the right of the one is protected from the many. So go eat grass.



Exactly. 
But - Jerry was affirming Kathy's statement that we are a representative democracy, not a true democracy.  If we were a true democracy, one person one vote, there are quite a few things that would never have happened - the ending of slavery, for example, or gay marriage (it wouldn't be the mess it is because it just never would pass) or any number of other 'civil rights' issues.  The majority would rule, and the minority, or the downtrodden, or whatever, would stay that way. 

As for whether or not it is working now no, I don't believe it is.  The power is on the side of the government, lopsidedly, in direct opposition to what it's supposed to be, as protected by that so-ignored document, the Constitution.
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kathyp
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« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2010, 07:02:25 PM »

slavery, put to a popular vote, would have been easily ended.  lincoln switched to the republican party primarily because of his stand on slavery.  not ending it, but not allowing new territories and states to be slave states.  by the time lincoln was elected, the corporate export and farming concerns (british and french) were gone or much smaller.  most businesses and farms were in the hands of americans and those tended to be smaller and family concerns.  even for large plantation owners, slavery was becoming very expensive.  most americans outside the south did not support slavery.  it was a very powerful southern lobby that kept it legal. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
reinbeau
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« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2010, 08:38:09 PM »

I don't know about that Kathy, there were quite a few slaves up here in the North, it's a dirty little secret that isn't talked about much.  But that wasn't my point - I was supporting what you said about representative democracy. 
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David LaFerney
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« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2010, 09:12:23 PM »

But - Jerry was affirming Kathy's statement that we are a representative democracy, not a true democracy.  If we were a true democracy, one person one vote, there are quite a few things that would never have happened - the ending of slavery, for example, or gay marriage (it wouldn't be the mess it is because it just never would pass) or any number of other 'civil rights' issues.  The majority would rule, and the minority, or the downtrodden, or whatever, would stay that way. 

As for whether or not it is working now no, I don't believe it is.  The power is on the side of the government, lopsidedly, in direct opposition to what it's supposed to be, as protected by that so-ignored document, the Constitution.

We are a representative democracy - which is a true form of democracy.  No it isn't "Pure Democracy" in that we don't all vote on every issue. But it is a democracy in my opinion and also in the opinions of most all definitions that I could quickly Google up.  I just liked the illustration of the prime merit of our representative system that Jerry gave.

It isn't perfect, and it never was.  We all get frustrated with the perceived unfairness when our position is on the losing side or when our majority is having to deal with a recalcitrant minority.  But then when the positions are reversed we all appreciate why the system is designed to give some degree of protection to the minority.  The framers knew it was a compromise system which would usually never please everyone at any given time - which is exactly why it has worked for so long. Pure democracy probably would not.
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

Putting the "ape" in apiary since 2009.
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