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Author Topic: CCD related to AHB?  (Read 9939 times)
bee-nuts
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« on: March 21, 2010, 02:45:23 AM »

I am reading a book called "beekeeping problems and Problem beekeepers" 2008.  He thinks CCD may be ahb genetic creeping into our bees particularly their absconding behavior.  He said he seen with his own eyes, (now this is from memory) a ahb hive next to two euro hives swarm or abscond, flying around there hives and all there bees leaving with them.  He said he then went into their hives and all that was left was a few bees and queens.  He attributed more than just that to it but it seems far fetched but yet plausible at the same time.  Most people get there queens from southern breeders.  If they dont, their neighbor does.  I mean, how can you escape it.  Its impossible no matter where you live.

What do you think.
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The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory

Thomas Jefferson
bee-nuts
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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2010, 02:47:44 AM »

I am reading a book called "beekeeping problems and Problem beekeepers" 2008.  He thinks CCD may be ahb genetic creeping into our bees particularly their absconding behavior.  He said he seen with his own eyes, (now this is from memory) a ahb hive next to two euro hives swarm or abscond, flying around there hives and all there bees leaving with them.  He said he then went into their hives and all that was left was a few bees and queens.  He attributed more than just that to it but it seems far fetched but yet plausible at the same time.  Most people get there queens from southern breeders.  If they dont, their neighbor does.  I mean, how can you escape it.  Its impossible no matter where you live.

What do you think.

I just got home from work.  I just read that and it does not make sense, really and does not convey what I mean to get across.  I will have to elaborate on this better latter.  The subject is still the same though.
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Thomas Jefferson
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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2010, 10:31:55 AM »

I think it makes sense. AHB tend to abscond and move as a natural varroa defense mechinism. Their genetics are getting muttled into the EHB genes in the south west and those bees are showing the same traits. People think CCD is a disease, but in actuallity it is a genetic trait.
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doak
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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2010, 02:09:49 PM »

Then if they jump up and fly away every time they get infested and don't build some kind of immunity to the situation, then honey harvest is doomed. I have always been under the impression the queen goes along with "absconding". :)doak.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2010, 09:52:45 PM »

funy thing is that the AHB fly away but they dont die -or else they would have depleted there own survivability-RDY-B
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2010, 02:15:19 AM »

Just got home from work again.  Tomorrow night I will try and find some of the points the author makes.  He is from Arizona and says he has had some of this strange absconding behavior happing apparently since 2002.  Apparently when ahb abscond some times the queen, brood and baby bees will be left behind.  If I remember correctly, if you have Ahb hybrid hives near each other, if one absconds, bees from the other hives also fly away leaving the queen, brood and baby bees behind. 

i dont know, but I have to assume that this guy knows something being that he has kept bees for decades and that he feels weird things have been happening since ahb have arrived.  He states that we typically tend to look for aggressive behavior, wing size and what not when we suspect that a colony may be africanized  Does this mean that other traits cant go under the radar.  Queen breeders associate aggressive behavior with an africanized colony.  What about other traits?  Do they go un-noticed and get spread around?

Again I am tired and not completely with it here so I apologize for any confusion.  I will try to do a better job when I get settled in tomorrow night on my day off.
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The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory

Thomas Jefferson
doak
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« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2010, 04:06:20 AM »

Then if the absconding "swarm" doesn't have a queen with them they are doomed. If they have a queen then it is a mass swarm. I have always been under the impression absconding is when everything goes. Queen and all, nothing left. Move out. lock stock and the rest.
I have had colonies that produced so many after swarms that it left what you describe, one queen a few bees and little brood. most time they don't make it. But still I don't consider this absconding.
Either way, if the bees can leave the pest behind and survive their selves then I consider that on the good side, for the bees. We will just have to accept it and deal with it, live with it.

It may be some  want to redefine some of the terms and actions that have been used for decades.
Regard less, the bees will do what they do.
So if some one discovers something the bees are doing that has never been noticed or recorded before, so what, the bees are just like us. They have to adapt to the changing times, like it or not.
We will all survive till the end of our time. Bees and all. Only thing, the times may not come at the "same" time.
Don't mean to sound so negatively cruel, but that's life.  :)doak
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2010, 09:17:49 PM »

First of all I just want to say that I dont agree or disagree with the author of the book "beekeeping problems and problem beekeepers'  I just found his opinion interesting and that maybe there is something to it.  I dont think he is saying that the bees are necessarily swarming or absconding as we typically think of but that maybe the bees are behaving in a different manor than they would have before some AHB genes getting mixed.  We know that/think bees will leave the hive if they are sick and not return.  Will they just fly of if something is wrong if they have a certain a.H.B. gene?  I dont know, or have any real opinion on it, just thought it was an interesting theory and thought I should share it.

To get a real accureate feeling for what the author of the book is getting across you will have to read the book, and absorb all he has written before and after these statements.  below (blue) is taken from the book with my poor typing skills

   Im view of what I have written above, I will stick my neck out and expound my concerns about the disappearing diseases or the so called colony collapse disorder.  As I write my ideas on the subject, others are haggling over disappearing disease.  Some of their conclusions are as follows: transportation, disturbances, viruses, bacteria, fungi, nosema, weather, nutrition, and the use of cell phones.
   My hypothesis is that all of the above are partially right.  I feel that Aricanization of our bees is the root of the problem.  The Africainization influence has escalated and appears to worsen every year.
   Queen breeders commercially select for gentleness and productivity with little regard for swarming or absconding tendencies.  Are all their breeding yards totally free of Africanized drones?  Bees having some of the Africanized traits are slowly creeping into the mating yards.  The trait I am most concerned with is their swarming and absconding tendencies.  
   Africanized bees swarm more frequent than European colonies.  The Arricanized trait of absconding involves their bees departing as a result of something they dont like.
[/color]
   
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 07:01:45 PM by buzzbee » Logged

The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory

Thomas Jefferson
doak
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« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2010, 03:37:51 PM »

I did notice one thing about my die outs. There was a good number of dead hive beetles on the bottom board. I did not have any test run there fore I don't know if there were any chemicals involved in my die outs. I am looking at it this way. The hive beetles eat the eggs and grubs. These have to develop into bees if the colony survives. Bees die off on a regular basis, if no replacement bees come, what happens?
You would not have to have a high number of beetles if your bee number was low, "or" if your bees were Inferior as good house keepers.
Case in point.
My first inspection,  on Feb. 18, two of my colonies were about even. Now one has a full box of bees and brood and the other is still at 3 frames. The only difference is the size. Deep vs Medium.
Talk to me. rolleyes :)doak
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2010, 02:14:15 AM »

Huh, I dont know where my quote went but, Ill guess Ill just end it here. 

Doak, You talking to me? 

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The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory

Thomas Jefferson
doak
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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2010, 12:23:50 PM »

Talking mostly, "about" the disappearing bees, to  anyone who want to read my opinions.
Hopefully I'll remember to put someones name at the beginning of my post if it is meant to their attention.

I was just reminding myself and anyone else about the bees dieing off on a regular basis. If they are not replaced, for what ever reason, then the colony will dwindle away. one way for this to happen is for something to happen to the eggs and brood. Has this even been studied in depth?

I for one am looking at it very strongly.  :)doak
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buzzbee
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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2010, 07:00:42 PM »

Beenuts,
your quote is still there in the previous post,it appears white and hard to see in my browser.


I think I have it fixed.
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doak
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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2010, 07:43:31 PM »

Yes Bee-Nuts.
I think I understand what you are saying is that the bees are swarming and absconding more after the A H B  have showed up on the scene. We have that to look at and can see it.
Has this persons book and/or explanations pointed this out as to being the culprit.

I don't have the book nor have I read it.
As for the colonies I lost some were a little more aggressive than others, but one thing in common with all the ones I lost, they were "highly" infested with "hive beetles".

I am going to do all I can that has been suggested to control the hive beetle this season.
I am going to try add back some of the losses I acquired in the past couple years.
Maybe next spring I will have something to go on If I am in better shape colony wise. :)doak
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2010, 10:00:00 PM »

buzzbee, thanks for fixing that

I did not ever work with bees before AHB were here, so could never really weight in on it.  What I know about CCD is that it is a mystery to date unless someone has a secret.  It may have happened before, it may be a virus, blah, blah, blah.  I do know for sure that I dont want to deal with CCD or AHB ever, related or not.

I have not seen a shb yet but I know that a commercial outfit less than two hours from me has been dealing with them and had to build a big freezer to keep all his honey boxes and stuff to keep them from destroying everything.  I have a feeling ill see some soon.
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Thomas Jefferson
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« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2010, 11:20:48 AM »

when/how do you all think AHB was introduced to the U.S.?

deknow
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doak
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« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2010, 07:06:29 PM »

They migrated here from South America via Mexico, some maybe stow a ways. :)doak
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« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2010, 10:51:21 PM »

They were supposedly here before in the Mississippi valley in the 60's or something. Somebody was experimenting with them I think. Sorry, dont know have a link but I know its true.  How it did not turn into the problem we have now I dont know.
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The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory

Thomas Jefferson
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« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2010, 11:36:16 PM »

The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Beekeeping
edited by Roger Morse and Ted Hooper

p230
"it is known that sperm from africanized bees was introduced into the united states and used to inseminate local queens in the late 1960's, without apparent adverse effect, and it is likely that queens were earlier introduced from africa into north america, again without problems."

deknow
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doak
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« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2010, 11:59:54 PM »

This is the first time I have heard this version of the story.

The one I have "always" heard up till now took place In Brazil S. America in the 60's.
They were trying to get the gentle traits from European bees and  the Immune and productive traits from the African bees.  They were confined and some one accidentally let some get out.
They became Ferrel and here they are.

Why all of a sudden now they were here in the Mississippi Vally in the 60's.
If that is the case why did it take so long for their defensive traits to kick in?

Media, media media. tell me some more. :)doak
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deknow
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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2010, 12:39:17 AM »

doak, i have a stack of documents that talk about the usda's attempts to breed a better bee by crossing lines (hybridization).  Kerr visited the madison lab _before_ he brought the african bee to brazil...and the reports (see below) indicate that some of these crosses (which seem to be from before african bees were being used) were really defensive...in 1951!

from "third quarter 1951, madison laboratory
"brief abstract for administrative use only"
"dr. warwick kerr, university of sao paulo, brazil, spent 2 months visiting the madison laboratory where he worked on cytological problems in bees in conjunction with ......He was the most stimulating foreign visitor this laboratory has entertained..."

it's also worth noting that in some of these old documents, you find references to the crosses they are testing being very hot:
"...bee gloves and coveralls, frowned upon by progressive beekeepers as cumborsome and unnecessary, had to be used even during the height of the honey flow to avoid an unbearable amount of punishment". this is from december of 1951.
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