Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
October 20, 2014, 01:13:50 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Beemaster's official FACEBOOK page
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: My small cell experiment has begun  (Read 6159 times)
Lesli
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 420


Location: Upstate NY


« on: April 30, 2005, 06:36:26 PM »

Hi All,
On the 15th, I hive 5 packages of small cell bees on small cell foundation and some drawn comb (I had a bit of drawn small cell from my bees last year).

So far, so good. The weather has been cool and rainy since Wednesday, but while it was warm and sunny, the girls were doing their thing. Other than removing the queen cages, I haven't inspected yet. I'll wait for good weather.

Since they have some drawn comb, I'm assuming they'll get off to a quick start.

Unless I see problems, there aren't going to be any treatments for these girls. If I see a varroa increase, well, I'll do powdered sugar or similar.
Logged

**************************
Lesli
http://beeyard.blogspot.com/
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13736


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2005, 07:35:15 PM »

When I started regressing I had figured on doing a drone magnet if the mites got bad.  They never did.  Smiley
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Lesli
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 420


Location: Upstate NY


« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2005, 07:53:12 PM »

That's certainly the outcome that I'm hoping for. But, ya know, I'm a skeptic, so I need a back up plan.  wink
Logged

**************************
Lesli
http://beeyard.blogspot.com/
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13736


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2005, 08:32:56 PM »

It's always good to have a backup plan.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Finsky
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2791


Location: Finland


« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2005, 04:33:01 PM »

Quote from: Lesli

Unless I see problems, there aren't going to be any treatments for these girls. If I see a varroa increase, well, I'll do powdered sugar or similar.


Powered sugar does not help with varroa.

There is no advantantage of small cells if your bees are not "anti varroa race", like Russian of Africanized. Normally bees do not identyfy varroa as enemy. Look at South- African report.  http://www.arc.agric.za/institutes/ppri/main/divisions/beekeeping/varroa.htm

There is no sence to do "own cell experiments". It is better that someone else "pays the pain moneys".   Cool



You are going to lean on good luck?
Logged
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13736


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2005, 09:22:47 AM »

>Powered sugar does not help with varroa.

The University of Nebraska has spent a lot of time researching it and says it does.  Other research on powdered sugar has been done for some time and they all say it helps.  I don't know of any research that shows that it does not help.  That said, I've only used it for detection, not for control, but then I'm on small cell, so it did not seem worth the work.

>There is no advantantage of small cells if your bees are not "anti varroa race", like Russian of Africanized. Normally bees do not identyfy varroa as enemy. Look at South- African report. http://www.arc.agric.za/institutes/ppri/main/divisions/beekeeping/varroa.htm

I've seen dramatic differences in Varroa reproduction simply by doing small cell with Italians, Carnis, Russians and ferals.  They ALL have shorter capping and post capping times.  They all have less Varroa when they have shorter capping and post capping times.  But I am trying to raise the feral survivors now.

>There is no sence to do "own cell experiments". It is better that someone else "pays the pain moneys".  

But there's no money in natural sized cells.  The bees do it for free, so what do you sell?  With nothing to sell, no one wants to pay for the research.  Where's the pain?

I admit, I do a lot of just plain NATURAL cell size with foundationless frames and top bar hives, rather than small cell foundation and I don't have to buy foundation and I don't have to wire it.  I don't have to buy chemicals and I don't have to treat.  I've not lost a hive to Varroa since regressing.  I'm not sure where the pain is?
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Jerrymac
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6047


Location: Wolfforth Texas


« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2005, 09:55:33 AM »

I read through the South African report and can't remember if it mentioned anything about the size of cells the beekeepers were using. If the beeks are using large cell and their bees have swarmed and became what is counted as ferel bees, their cells will possibly be larger than the true ferel colonies.

Perhaps this report also proves that the African bees are no more resistant to the mites when raised on large cell. Perhaps the mite resistence comes from being on natural cell sizes, and it could then be that all bees are resistant if left to their own natural devises.

If the mite has been around for millions of years, what kept them in check for so long? Now after the recent manipulation of man these past 100 years, the mites are capable of spreading to places they couldn't spread before because the bees can no longer resist them as they could naturally before mans manipulations.
Logged

rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

 Jerry

My pictures.Type in password;  youview
     http://photobucket.com/albums/v225/Jerry-mac/
Lesli
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 420


Location: Upstate NY


« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2005, 05:40:09 AM »

So far, so good. I opened the hives when it was warm (for about half an hour!) on Sunday to check on them, a bit more than two weeks after hiving. Everyone looked good, capped brood, and so on. Some badly drawn small cell (I'm using plastic) had to be scraped, but no big deal. Since the weather was iffy, I didn't want to do a total tear down, but I pulled a frame here and there, and everyone had pollen and nectar stored.

Finsky, what Michael said is true. Small cell bees and small cell foundation cost me the same as regular. So even if, for some reason, it doesn't work, well, all I've got is... exactly what I'd have anyway.

Although I'm more than happy to sell honey and so on, my first priority is NOT a huge harvest. My first priority is healthy, self-sufficient bees. It's not easy! I like to tinker and to try things. So doing NOTHING is, in its way, harder for me. Smiley
Logged

**************************
Lesli
http://beeyard.blogspot.com/
Finsky
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2791


Location: Finland


« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2005, 05:15:09 AM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
>Powered sugar does not help with varroa.

The University of Nebraska has spent a lot of time researching it and says it does.  Other research on powdered sugar has been done for some time and they all say it helps.  I don't know of any research that shows that it does not help.  That said, I've only used it for detection, not for control, but then I'm on small cell, so it did not seem worth the work.


In Finland one man made Doctor research in Helsinki University, but others have not been able to vefiry his good results in Finland in practice level. - It helps but is the level enough for commercial beekeeping.  There may bee some trick?[/quote]

Quote
I've seen dramatic differences in Varroa reproduction simply by doing small cell with Italians, Carnis, Russians and ferals.  They ALL have shorter capping and post capping times.  They all have less Varroa when they have shorter capping and post capping times.  But I am trying to raise the feral survivors now.


Dramatic differences  - Quite much said ! Is that so easy!

Small cells have written 10 years. Why it is not used in commercial level?

I have read quite much small cell reseach - what I have found fron Net, but I have not seen "shortened capping time"

Quote
But there's no money in natural sized cells.  The bees do it for free, so what do you sell?  With nothing to sell, no one wants to pay for the research.  Where's the pain?

I admit, I do a lot of just plain NATURAL cell size with foundationless frames and top bar hives, rather than small cell foundation and I don't have to buy foundation and I don't have to wire it.  I don't have to buy chemicals and I don't have to treat.  I've not lost a hive to Varroa since regressing.  I'm not sure where the pain is?


Pain is that I have not lost hives for varroa. I killed one hive in 1982 for varroa. Not more.   I have had 20 years varroa in my hives. I am not going to do studies on my own risk. I do not believe in natural methods, only because they are natural. I am master on science in biology, and I just believe that I can distinguise "fact" and "opinion" Net is full of nonsence and good purpose.  Michael, you have mostly good notes, I do not believe on your all notes.

People offer their natural systems, their claims are often wrong and their basic knowledge is wrong. And why real natural bees die when varroa arrive. That have happenet in Finland, in USA, in South Africa...

Why varroa does not adapt to small cell?

I had varroa resistant race some hives, but hives had as much mites like ordinary bees. And they were agry bees.

But thanks to varroa! It killed black German race from Finland. They crossed all the time with tame Italians. Now it is very easy to nurse bees. There is not many feral hives  in Finland. I know one feral hive, which have lived in the hole of wall 6 years.  I am going to cross my bees with it. But it's color turned from Krainian grey to Italian last summer.  It is only 5 km to that wall hive.
Logged
Jerrymac
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6047


Location: Wolfforth Texas


« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2005, 05:38:51 AM »

Finsky,

You have posted an article yourself that talked about shorter capping times. I will search for it and post it here when I find it.

Varroa does not adapt to small cell for the same reasons other animals and insects don't change their reproduction cycles. Wouldn't women be grateful for shorter pregnancies?
Logged

rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

 Jerry

My pictures.Type in password;  youview
     http://photobucket.com/albums/v225/Jerry-mac/
Jerrymac
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6047


Location: Wolfforth Texas


« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2005, 07:21:09 AM »

Here is where you posted the article;

http://beemaster.com/beebbs/viewtopic.php?t=1766&highlight=

And this is the article you posted;

http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.htm

Here is something taken from this article;

 "The small width comb cells produced by Africanized honey bees may have a role in the ability of these bees to tolerate infestations by Varroa destructor, furthermore it appears that natural-sized comb cells are superior to over-sized comb cells for disease resistance."

 "decreased development time of Africanized worker brood"

And as I have said before, replace "Africanized" with "small cell".
Logged

rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

 Jerry

My pictures.Type in password;  youview
     http://photobucket.com/albums/v225/Jerry-mac/
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13736


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2005, 08:53:54 AM »

"The worm of workers passes three days in the egg, five in the vermicular state, and then the bees close up its cell with a wax covering. The worm-now begins spinniiig its cocoon, in whichoperation thirty-fix hours are consumed. In three days, it changes to a nymph, and passes six days in this form. It is only on the twentieth day of its existence, counting from the moment the egg is laid, that it attains the fly sate."

François Huber, 4 September 1791.  From the 1806 edition of "New Observations on the Natural History of Bees" page 151

http://bees.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=bees;cc=bees;sid=59f245051efcbff8255002f160444e72;rgn=full%20text;idno=5017286;view=image;seq=0009

Isn't this a shorter capping time and shorter emergence time?  Twenty days instead of the currently accepted 21?  Wasn't Huber on natural sized comb?  Eight hours shorter is adequate to stabilize varroa populations.

It's not difficult to verify shorter capping and post capping times on natural sized cells.  But it is helpful, if you let them make their own, to measure it on various sizes since they will build from 5.1mm to 4.6mm and the times run from about 20 days for 5.1mm to 19 days on 4.95mm to 18 days on 4.6mm.

And while on the subject of Huber.  How about comb spacing.

"The leaf or book hive consists of twelve vertical frames or boxes, parallel to each other, and joined together the sides, should be twelve inches long, and the cross spars, nine or ten; the thickness of these spars an inch, and their breadth fifteen lines (one line = 1/12".  15 lines = 1 1/4" = 32mm). It is necessary that this last measure should be accurate"

François Huber, 18. August 1789.  From the 1806 edition of "New Observations on the Natural History of Bees" page 5.

http://bees.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=bees;cc=bees;sid=59f245051efcbff8255002f160444e72;rgn=full%20text;idno=5017286;view=image;seq=0009

Isn't the "accepted" number for natural comb for a European bee 35mm (1 3/8")?  But Huber's observation is the same as what is currently accepted for AHB or Scutella which is 32mm.

Obviously natural cell size has always been 32mm spacing on combs and twenty days or less from egg to emergence.  Or at least since 1806.

As for commercial people doing small cell I know of several.

As just mentioned, everything about AHB sizes correspond to natural sized bees.  Huber's measurments on comb spacing and development times that he did in the 18th and 19th century on European honey bees, are consistent with what we now attribute to AHB.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
manowar422
Guest
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2005, 01:32:25 PM »

Quote
On the 15th, I hive 5 packages of small cell bees on small cell foundation and some drawn comb


Lesli, I wish you luck and keep us all posted.
I have been PMing Michael Bush and picking his
brain all week. I too will begin shortly to regress
my bees also. Michael has been very helpful and
has lots of experience with small cell. I'm going to
give this a couple of years and then I'd be willin'
to bet that as more of us try this, the more positive
results we will see.

David
Logged
Lesli
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 420


Location: Upstate NY


« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2005, 04:14:44 PM »

Thanks for the good wishes. Four of the hives are doing well. They're all drawing some small cell well, though there's also some "floating" comb.

One hive has a poor queen. Today was my first big inspection (the girls were hived 21 days ago). Four hives have a really nice brood pattern, but one has very spotty brood and way too many drones. The bees, wisely, have decided to replace that queen. There is one capped queen cell and one uncapped. I'm going to let them raise a queen for themselves, but am also going to be experimenting with queen rearing this year.

If this hive's replacement queen doesn't seem to be working out, I'll combine them with another colony.
Logged

**************************
Lesli
http://beeyard.blogspot.com/
Finsky
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2791


Location: Finland


« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2005, 03:19:57 AM »

Quote from: Michael Bush


François Huber, 4 September 1791.  From the 1806 edition of "New Observations on the Natural History of Bees" page 151

François Huber, 18. August 1789.  From the 1806 edition of "New Observations on the Natural History of Bees" page 5.

 and development times that he did in the 18th and 19th century on European honey bees, are consistent with what we now attribute to AHB.


When I studied in Helsinki University, my professor said that DON'T READ OVER 5 YEARS OLD BOOK. THEY HAVE TOO MUCH WRONG KNOWLEDGE.

Mite history has been all the time full of wrong knowledge, over 90%. I am not going to play with risk.

Michael, you cannot get answer from history. Vain effort.
Logged
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13736


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2005, 07:36:55 AM »

The question is, what size combs and cells do natural European honey bees build and, on them, what are the pre and post capping times.  Since we've been enlarging bees and their comb artificially for some time.  At least part of the answer to this question IS history.

The point REALLY was to show that when research was done on natural bees before all of the enlarging, this was the result and that result is consistent with my observations and easily repeatable in any era.  Huber took very careful measurments and gave us most of the important practical knowledge we now have of bees.  So, the point is that none of this, shorter times for natural cell size, smaller spacing of comb naturally, is new.  It is the way it has always been if the bees are allowed to do it.

I have many old bee books and learn much from them.  The bees haven't really changed.  But the good books, on bees before enlargement, are all over a hundred years old.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Finsky
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2791


Location: Finland


« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2005, 09:28:21 AM »

Quote from: Michael Bush


The point REALLY was to show that when research was done on natural bees before all of the enlarging, this was the result and that result is consistent with my observations and easily repeatable in any era.  Huber took very careful measurments and gave us most of the important practical knowledge we now have of bees.  


Bee races have different size, and cells too. What was the race which were measured?

Human has manipulated all kinds of animals and plants and he had made this 10 000 years. During my short beekeeping history I can say that bees are not so tolerant against deseases like before. But bees are now easy to nurse.

Here I have said many times, that mites is not problem in Finland. It is very easy to handle.  It is not worth to take into  use to take small cell size and varroa question of life.

Here beginners think that small cell is something important. But the most important is that they look every week into they hives and learn what hapens there. Still I wonder why beginners like superstition more than certain cures. - They are making science, but it is totally nonsence.

The arguments which I have seen for small cell is very near to superstition.  It is too good to be true. That argument has been known 10 years and still unclear, how it works.

We can take many other excamples from tomato, from cow, what ever, how before it was good and now is not. But I do not believe that at all.


.
Quote
I have many old bee books and learn much from them.  The bees haven't really changed.  But the good books, on bees before enlargement, are all over a hundred years old.


Bees really has changed. I have nursed German black, Kaukasian, Krainians, Buckfast, Italians, Elqons and their mixtures.  During my 40 beekeeping years honey yield has rised tree fold per hive.

The way to keep bees has changed in western countries. In many world area beekeeping is still same like 100 years ago.

Logged
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13736


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2005, 10:11:30 AM »

>The arguments which I have seen for small cell is very near to superstition. It is too good to be true. That argument has been known 10 years and still unclear, how it works.

It is OBVIOUS how it works!  Whether or not there are other aspects to natural sized comb or now, my point is that shorter capping times on natural cell were documented two hundred years ago.  They are still shorter and shorter capping times are KNOWN to reduce Varroa reproduction.

It is a simple thing to measure.  Just make sure the comb they are on is 4.9mm or smaller.

I, for one, have ALWAYS recomended measuring your mite load and NEVER operate on assumptions (superstitions?).  Relying on something simply because you believe in it is not enough.  Belief will not kill Varroa mites.  Just ask all the people who lost their bees to Varroa after treating with Apistan, the scientifically recommended treatment to which the Varroa here, where I live are now virtually immune.  Many lost hundreds of hives here trusting that superstition.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Finsky
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2791


Location: Finland


« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2005, 12:26:08 PM »

Quote from: Michael Bush
>Just ask all the people who lost their bees to Varroa after treating with Apistan, the scientifically recommended treatment to which the Varroa here, where I live are now virtually immune.  Many lost hundreds of hives here trusting that superstition.


That point, what people know and why put them act?

I handled  15 years my bees with apistan and then I got resistant varroa population. In front of that fact I was obliged to change system. But 15 years is big time.

1987 years ago my friend said that he has bad varroa. I offered freely Perizin to him. He said:" I do not mind this time, thanks". He lost 30 hives from 60.

Now we can see that in forums we give warnings and what is the result?
If we find something in Europe, it is not valid in America. And best European methods  are from pitiable East!

I think that people act in front of compulsion, not with knowledge.

"Also _cock_ will lay eggs if he must"
Logged
crw13755
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 173


Location: Texas


« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2005, 01:09:30 PM »

I like the pic is that what you call small cell hives?   embarassed
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.342 seconds with 21 queries.

Google visited last this page October 11, 2014, 01:44:30 AM