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Author Topic: Walk away splits ?  (Read 5609 times)
specialkayme
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« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2010, 02:22:10 PM »

For example, you wouldn't want to do a walk away split with, say, 2 frames of bees.

Rick

MDA Splitter would disagree . . . but that's neither here nor there Smiley
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beryfarmer
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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2010, 03:20:20 PM »

Any reason why it has to be a nuc?  It seems to me that if you transfer over 4 full frames into an empty deep with 6 empty frames, that should work as well.  I think the explainations are good to be in excrutiating detail. 

Remember as a new beek of how it felt to dump in your first package and the fear of not doing it right.  Then managing your pets/slaves to make sure they are healthy and prosper-- almost like being a new parent.
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specialkayme
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2010, 05:22:01 PM »

Any reason why it has to be a nuc?  It seems to me that if you transfer over 4 full frames into an empty deep with 6 empty frames, that should work as well.  I think the explainations are good to be in excrutiating detail. 

It doesn't need to be a nuc. When I first got started, I didn't have any 5 frame boxes, so I just used 10 frame ones. It worked alright.

But, you need to keep in mind that when you do a walkaway split the colony you are creating won't have a queen laying for up to a month. That is a substantial period of time for the hive numbers to deteriorate. This shrinking bee size will make the hive susceptible to parasites. Down south that means SHB and wax moths will be moving in. If you use a 5 frame box instead of a 10 frame one, the smaller colony has a better chance of defending the hive from 'invaders'.
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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2010, 08:12:56 PM »

Michael,Tell me one thing,do you place them facing toward the old location or  Face both of new hives at the sides of the old hive ?

The simple version is to make sure you have some eggs in each of the deeps and put them facing toward the old location. In other words put a bottom board on the left facing the left side of the hive and one on the right facing the right side of the hive and put one deep on each and maybe an empty deep on top of that. Put the tops on and walk away.


An even split. You take half of everything and divide it up. Face both of new hives at the sides of the old hive so the returning bees aren't sure which one to come back to. In a week or so, swap places to equalize the drift to the one with the queen.
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2010, 08:16:09 PM »

What is it you can't comprehend?

I no comprehend Jack, I comprehend Sharon.
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
Joelel
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« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2010, 08:25:50 PM »

Here you go Joelel; set up two nuc boxes next to the original hive, one of them 12 " away and facing the same direction as the original hive; the other nuc 36" away and facing the same direction as the original hive. Find the queen in the original hive; when you find her isolate that frame until you're done with the splits (just drop the frame & queen in an empty box temporarily). Now remove a frame with eggs, open brood and bees and place it in the nuc box 12" away. Find another frame with eggs, open brood and bees and place in the nuc box 36" away. Now remove a frame with capped/emerging brood and bees and place in the closest nuc. Find another frame with capped/emerging brood and bees and place in farthest nuc. Repeat the last 2 steps so that you now have 2 frames of capped/emerging brood and one frame of eggs/open brood in each nuc. Now place a frame of pollen and honey next to the frame of open brood in each box. If using 4 frame nucs put the lids on the nucs. If using 5 frame nucs put another frame of honey or pollen and honey in each nuc. Put the lids on the nucs. Now replace the original queen back into the original hive (the hive that's 12" away from one nuc and 36" away from the other nuc). Replace the pulled frames with drawn comb, if available, or foundation. If you feel that the nucs don't have enough bees then shake some more in! Most of the bees in the nuc boxes now are nurse bees which is the type of bee needed to raise a new queen. The field bees will go home to the original hive. Who cares? Most were out foraging anyway while you were making a mess of their hive. You now have two new nucs, full of nurse bees, one placed 12" from the original hive and one placed 36" from the old hive. Now, put out your smoker, pack up your tools, say goodbye to the bees, and go home. Don't come back for a week or so; then just peek in and see if you have queen cells. If not, put some more eggs in! Simple!!!

Right simple,thanks for telling me where to put the splits,that was simple.
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
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« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2010, 08:34:48 PM »

Joelel:

Chill out - JsMob was saying you are over thinking it, if you aren't getting your questions answered with all those trying to help, then it is YOU with the communication problem, not them. Watch the attitude, I know for a fact it isn't the first time I've said THAT to you - hope you understand this reply.



Yes I know,I wanted to know where to place the splits but that's making it hard on myself and it's simple,I guess I should know that without learning ? Thanks my friend . Sorry for over thinking,think i'll just put the splits on a boat in the middle of a 40 mile wide lake. Thanks
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
Joelel
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« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2010, 08:40:04 PM »

Any reason why it has to be a nuc?  It seems to me that if you transfer over 4 full frames into an empty deep with 6 empty frames, that should work as well.  I think the explainations are good to be in excrutiating detail. 

Remember as a new beek of how it felt to dump in your first package and the fear of not doing it right.  Then managing your pets/slaves to make sure they are healthy and prosper-- almost like being a new parent.

You got it but it's simple and i'm making it hard on myself you know.
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
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« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2010, 10:03:59 PM »

Boy... this is complicated!
...and all this time I thought that a "Walk Away Split" was when one takes a hive, pulls out frames, brood, honey & pollen and puts them in another box, resulting in two boxes about even in brood, pollen and honey, fill up the empty spaces in each box with new frames with foundation (or not.) and then the Good Lord takes over and you get to........ walk away!
I thought that splitting was done so that one did not have to get a ladder to go fetch a swarm in some tree somewhere.

Yes one box will have a queen and one box will not, unless of course you kill the queen when you throw those frames around.
But natural evolution will make life in the hive want to carry on, reduce the entrances in both boxes, it gives the bees a fair advantage in defending the hive, if there is enough honey and pollen you won't have to feed them.
Yes one hive will be slower to get kicking again, 16 days to new queen, four to five days before she get her spermathica upgraded and then...she'll get to play for a couple of days, eggs not quite where they should be but she'll get the hang of it and start laying 12 to 15 hundred eggs a day...
Now you don't expect to harvest from either of those this year or do you? If you do, you'll notice that one is doing really good and one is doing not as well...harvest from the good one...personally I like to wait until the warmer days of spring to harvest...that way they use what they need and you can have the rest...
Again you take a good hive, split it and walk away...that is a walk away split. Where you put the hive...who cares? front facing east west south or north...won't keep the bees from using that water proof shelter...2 inches, two miles.. again, up to you the bees don't care. Yes the foragers get to go back to the original location...however, every day, 12 to 15 hundred new foragers emerge and find their way back to the hive where they came from that day...so split and walk away.

BTW, I don't think that putting a hive on a boat is really a good idea, it makes checking on he girls a bit too much work...I just put mine on cinder blocks, outside. Where really does not matter much, they have wings, they will find food.
Your job as a beekeeper is to try to not kill the bees, enjoy the honey, the pollen and the wax... and the simplicity of it all.
Or just buy some local honey from some other beekeeper. Ultimately that is the easiest way to get the golden nectar of the Gods!...though not really the most enjoyable... for me.
But remember it took millions of years for bees to evolve, we humans weren't around then to mess with them, then...they know how to live, the human race still has to come around to living in a sustainable way. They (the bees) produce more than they consume in their lives, we do not. Roads don't count, neither does pollution and urban sprawl .
So...split and walk away. It's that simple.

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doak
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« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2010, 10:11:31 PM »

Thanks Ollie,
Good reply :)doak

When a colony splits in the wild, who is there to walk away?
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luvin honey
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« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2010, 11:08:56 PM »

Is that along the lines of "If a tree falls in the forest and noone is there to hear it, does it still make a noise?"   rolleyes
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« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2010, 01:41:42 AM »

Is that along the lines of "If a tree falls in the forest and noone is there to hear it, does it still make a noise?"   rolleyes


I always heard this a little differently: If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one to hear it, do the other trees still laugh at it?" Smiley

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« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2010, 03:15:11 AM »

>Here you say,put them facing toward the old location. Do you leave your queen with some brood and eggs and bees in the old location ?

I usually leave nothing at the old location if doing this method of equalizing.  You set a bottom on each side of the orginal hive and face the entrace toward the old hive and divide it up.

> How far away from the front of the old hive do you put the split hives ?

Anywhere from touching (my usual method when not bothering to face the old location) or the other side of the world or anything in between.

>The simple version is to make sure you have some eggs in each of the deeps and put them facing toward the old location. In other words put a bottom board on the left facing the left side of the hive and one on the right facing the right side of the hive and put one deep on each and maybe an empty deep on top of that. Put the tops on and walk away.

Exactly.

>In the even split,even split would be two hives,right ?

Probably, but that doesn't mean a booming hive couldn't be evenly split into three, but that would be norm.  It's all playing it by ear.  The stronger the split is the quickerr it takes off.

>If you take half,that means you end up with two hives,right ?

That wold be typical, yes.

>Here you say,Face both of new hives at the sides of the old hive. Both at the side of the old would be three hives.

The old hive is no longer there.

> Do you leave any bees in the old hive ?

No.

. How far away from the old hive do you put both hives facing ?

Right next door.


>Michael,In this walk away split,Where do you put your nucs,say if you split into 3 or 4  nucs ?

Anywhere you like.


>In swarm control,Where do you place your split queen nuc when you move her to a nuc ?

Anywhere you like.

> How and where do you place all the nucs ?

Anywhere you like.

>Do you put a frame of eggs in with the queen or just capped brood ?

I don’t  care.   If I see the queen I prefer to putt her in a new location, If I don’t see her, I don’t care.

> Do you place the queen nuc back in the same place as the old hive or in a different location ?

A different location if I happened to see her.

>My main problem is, Where and how and how far apart do you place hives (nucs) when you split,so you don't get all the workers back in the same hive ?

I does not matter one little bit.

>Any reason why it has to be a nuc?

No.  It’s helpful with a very small split to have less room to guard and take care of.

> It seems to me that if you transfer over 4 full frames into an empty deep with 6 empty frames, that should work as well.

I will work ok.  But not as well as 4 frames of brood and five frames of honey and another box of empty comb.

>  I think the explainations are good to be in excrutiating detail.

There are so many variations and possibilities that this is impossible. What you need are just the concepts.  Make sure both halves have some brood and resources and that the brood is together and that you account for the drift by either facing them to the old hive, moving them 2 miles away or shaking in some extra bees, or swapping locations in a few days to equalize.  Any of these methods works fine.

>Tell me one thing,do you place them facing toward the old location or  Face both of new hives at the sides of the old hive ?

Both of the new hives to the old location that now has no hive.  This is one of many methods to minimize the hives being unequal in population from drift.

>oy... this is complicated!

No.  It's not.  Just make sure they both have some brood and somewhat equal number of bees and if you anticipate drift shake some extra into the one that will drift away.  Anymore I use all eight frame mediums, I do my splits when I have at least four boxes of bees and stores and I deal the boxes like cards.  one for you and one for you onto two bottoms and put a top on each and walk away.  I don't even look for brood or the queen. They are both in a new location so I don’t worry about drift.

>..and all this time thought that a "Walk Away Split" was when one takes a hive, pulls out frames, brood, honey & pollen and puts them in another box, resulting in two boxes about even in brood, pollen and honey, fill up the empty spaces in each box with new frames with foundation (or not.) and then the Good Lord takes over and you get to........ walk away!

Exactly.

>I thought that splitting was done so that one did not have to get a ladder to go fetch a swarm in some tree somewhere.

Exactly.

>Yes one box will have a queen and one box will not, unless of course you kill the queen when you throw those frames around.

Exactly.

>But natural evolution will make life in the hive want to carry on, reduce the entrances in both boxes, it gives the bees a fair advantage in defending the hive, if there is enough honey and pollen you won't have to feed them.

Yes.

>Yes one hive will be slower to get kicking again, 16 days to new queen, four to five days before she get her spermathica upgraded and then...she'll get to play for a couple of days, eggs not quite where they should be but she'll get the hang of it and start laying 12 to 15 hundred eggs a day...

Surprisingly it’s less difference than you thinnk.  The bees aren’t just sitting aorund when there is no brood to care for, they are foraging, so they have some stores when the queen starts laying and they can spare more bees for nursing...

>Now you don't expect to harvest from either of those this year or do you?

Sometimes.

>If you do, you'll notice that one is doing really good and one is doing not as well...harvest from the good one...

Exactly.

Personally I like to wait until the warmer days of spring to harvest...that way they use what they need and you can have the rest...

Or the cold days of fall...

>Again you take a good hive, split it and walk away...that is a walk away split.

Yes.

>Where you put the hive...who cares?

Exactly.  The only advantage to facing the two to the old location is better equalization. But it's not that big of a deal one way or the other.

> front facing east west south or north...won't keep the bees from using that water proof shelter...2 inches, two miles.. again, up to you the bees don't care.

No, they won't.

> Yes the foragers get to go back to the original location...however, every day, 12 to 15 hundred new foragers emerge and find their way back to the hive where they came from that day...so split and walk away.

Exactly.

>So...split and walk away. It's that simple.

Yes it is.
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beryfarmer
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« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2010, 06:16:30 AM »

Bet you had fun writing that---lol

Good response.  That is why i made the post comparing it too installing a new pacikage for the first time.  I would imagine there should be a youtube video somewhere.

Another question-- of all i read (unless i missed it) there is no clear indication of when is the best time to do this-  I know on the bush site there are very clear description of the types of splits and why one would do it but my question is timing....

My bees are just beginning to forage and bring back tree pollen over the last week.  Temps are in the 50s with lows in the low 30s  I am about to feed them a candy board with megabee to supplement.

I would imagine in about a month time might be a good time to split.  I guess it really is hive dependent-- how many bees you have.  If you are bursting with bees- then do a split.  if you are still building up - wait a couple of weeks.  It's all judgement.

Another simple question-- why couldnt hobby beek have a 3deep colony--ie huge colony-- will the bees swarm if they have plenty of space?  I guess it is a matter of efficiency-- i guess a lot of the 3 deep hive will be filled with honey instead of brood  so the beek may as well cull of the honey by using supers.....
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bassman1977
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« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2010, 09:31:10 AM »

Quote
I would imagine in about a month time might be a good time to split.  I guess it really is hive dependent-- how many bees you have.  If you are bursting with bees- then do a split.  if you are still building up - wait a couple of weeks.  It's all judgement.

Good judgment is right but some things that could help you decide.  First, as you mentioned, is the hive large enough to split.  Probably not a good idea to split a softball sized hive.  I would say this is most important.  Also, look for drones in your hive.  If your hive is about where it should be drone wise, then your split shouldn't have a hard time raising a queen.

I'm not doing walk away splits this year.  I'm going to split my only hive but raise my queen via Jenter first.  I'll probably start the last week in April and have queens ready in May, if that gives you an idea as to when I'll be splitting (since we are both from PA).

Quote
Another simple question-- why couldnt hobby beek have a 3deep colony--ie huge colony-- will the bees swarm if they have plenty of space?  I guess it is a matter of efficiency-- i guess a lot of the 3 deep hive will be filled with honey instead of brood  so the beek may as well cull of the honey by using supers....

If I understand your question and thinking, you are thinking of just having a hive of all deeps, not using a queen excluder, and just pulling honey from each of the boxes?  This is an unlimited brood nest set up, used by many.  I did that at one time but I don't like the method personally.  Nothing wrong with it.  Personal preference.
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« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2010, 11:16:13 AM »

A special thanks to about three of you who went to a great extent to explain every detail. a thanks to those of you who posted bits and pieces I put together and came up with the best way to do splits. No thank to people who make little smart Alic remarks and try to start fire storms all the time.

I come to the conclusion,It makes no difference  where or how you place splits as long as you don't place them in the middle of a 40 mile lake on a boat. It makes no difference as long as you put plenty of brood,new eggs,honey and bees in the split so they can get off to a good start. It makes no difference if the worker bees go back to the old hive.

Once again with your help ,I figured out the best way to make splits. In intend to be the best bee keeper any where.
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
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« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2010, 11:32:40 AM »

I have been following this thread and I personally feel like you should be thanking EVERYONE for their patience!
Michael Bush deserves a medal for this one. grin
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« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2010, 11:51:34 AM »

Sheeesh!  I have a headache now.   tongue
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« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2010, 12:47:30 PM »

a thanks to those of you who posted bits and pieces I put together and came up with the best way to do splits.

 In intend to be the best bee keeper any where.

So, after 35 posts involving very detailed explanations . . . you put together the 'bits' and 'pieces' and came up with the best way yourself? I don't even think I'm going to touch this one.

Good luck becoming the best beekeeper (one word). I hope you get there.

I would highly suggest you find an in person mentor. You can learn so much from watching someone work.
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« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2010, 02:00:52 PM »

  This has been VERY entertaining to say the least!   grin

...DOUG
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