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Author Topic: Oxalic acid treatment  (Read 9060 times)
bee-nuts
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« on: March 03, 2010, 03:00:13 AM »

This video is the best vapor demonstration I have seen so far.  Looks very risky.  Buy is apparently an artist too.  Video is even given mellow music.

sublimation oxalic acid


If I were to treat with oxalic acid I think I would go with the dribble method which seems a lot safer and probably quicker.

Treatment of Honeybees with Oxalic Acid


Oxalsyrebehandling II


And this guy, what is he doing?  Mineral oil?

Beekeeping part 01 - Varroa destructor


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Michael Bush
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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2010, 04:14:28 AM »

The dribble is harder on the bees.  You can only do it once or you damage them too much to get through the winter.  The vapor method can be used multiple times with no apparent shortening of the bees' lives.
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« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2010, 11:33:52 AM »

The dribble is harder on the bees.  You can only do it once or you damage them too much to get through the winter.  The vapor method can be used multiple times with no apparent shortening of the bees' lives.

Ok.  What is the potential damage to the human though from vapors.  I would much rather damage my bees than myself.  I know, dont treat at all right. 

I like the vapor idea but it seems to dangerous and not worth the risk.

The one thing that worries me about the dribble too though is how much damage will it doo to the queen.  If it hurts the bees as you say, how many times can the queen take it?  Does anybody know that?
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2010, 02:25:40 PM »

So tell me, where do you get that vaporizor?
and where to get the oxalic acid? is it crystal?
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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2010, 03:53:55 PM »

this is the 12volt vaporizer I have and the crystals are wood bleach sold at the hardware store

http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/Vaporizer.htm
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2010, 07:15:12 PM »

Or you can do something like this...





I drilled a hole in my IPM bottom boards for this, but you could also go through the front.
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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2010, 10:01:18 PM »

Hm, weird, I couldn't see the video, just a kind of link, so no clue what this dude was doing.

I dunno.  I treat my colonies using the same vapourizer unit that Danno does.  When the colonies are vapourized, all the open spaces are sealed up tight as a button.  Barely can even any vapour be seen coming out of the colony.  That colony is left sealed for 10 minutes.  There are no visible vapours, I do not worry about inhalation of them.  I always wear a good quality gas mask anyways.  My vapour unit is hooked up to long cables that are attached to the battery, they are about 20 feet long and I stand a longs ways off.  There is no way on this good green earth that any fumes could even come close to me. Oh yes, and by the way, I wouldn't do it on a windy day.  I would with a tiny wind, but I would stand up wind.  Don't know what all the panic is about vapourizing with oxalic acid.  It is quick, efficient and kills mites.  Period.  Anyways, just my two cents here.  Have that beautiful, most great day, with that best health. Cindi
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« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2010, 11:32:13 PM »

>Ok.  What is the potential damage to the human though from vapors.  I would much rather damage my bees than myself.  I know, dont treat at all right. 

I don't treat at all anymore.  But I have used Oxalic vapor before I got regressed to small cell.  Breathing it feels like when you breath the fumes form draino in your sink.  It hurts your lungs and you won't want to do it again.  Light a smoker.  Make sure you are standing up wind.  Watch the smoke to make sure.

>I like the vapor idea but it seems to dangerous and not worth the risk.

It's probably not worth doing at all when you consider how much it will upset the balance of the microbes in the hive, but the vapor is still less than the dribble.

>The one thing that worries me about the dribble too though is how much damage will it doo to the queen.  If it hurts the bees as you say, how many times can the queen take it?  Does anybody know that?

The statistics I've seen on all of these are that formic will kill the some queens.  I have not seen any evidence that oxalic does.  It seems to me if it damages the bees, it damages the queens, and dribbling oxalic does damage the bees.
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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2010, 12:15:57 AM »

There seems to be a pro or a con one way or the other if you treat or dont treat.  I am no expert but after what reading Ive done, I believe oxalic acid is one of the safest varroa treatments out there.  Apistan, checkmite, and others contaminate everything in the hive with pesticides.  Oxalic acid is natural, and it goes in and out of us just about every day when we eat and drink.  Its in honey already and should not adsorb into wax anyway because its not fat soluble.  I should not build up as pesticides do and mites should not build resistance to it.  If its done in early spring and fall when little or no brood is present it is reported to have a great mite kill rate.  Then comes the low price of applications, low price of applicators (syringe for dribble), qne the ease and speed of application.  For these reasons I believe its a great option if it works as is reported.

What would be fantastic would be something with low toxicity to humans and bees but very toxic to mites which could be feed to the bees and kill ALL mites when they feed.  That would be great.  Kind of like that hydrogen peroxide thing and hive beetles which I heard about here or on beeesource.

I dunno.  I know I dont like pesticides.  I have some claimed mite resistant queens ordered for this summer and I sure hope this line of thinking ends up being the answer in the long term.

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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2010, 12:50:30 AM »

Oxalic looks good on the surface.  It's arleady in honey.  It is already in our food.  It doesn't build up in the wax.  But it does damage the bees and it does throw the microbial world of the hive totally off by killing all sorts of necessary microbes.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmorethan.htm
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rdy-b
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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2010, 02:50:09 AM »

The last video was not mineral oil-He was aplying a mist solution the active ingredient was AMITRAZ
which is the USA eqivalent of TACTICK-Amitraz is legal in CANADA-in a strip form-RDY-B
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2010, 02:57:03 AM »

the 12 volt vaporizor is best-reason is-the torch and pipe method has no way to control the temp and when oxalic
is heated past sublimation point it then turns to formic acid -and like MB said with formic you can get a high mortality rate with your queens-RDY-B
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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2010, 03:10:57 AM »

I have used a friend's 12 volt setup to demo it at beekeeper meetings.  I only used the pipe, since treating wasn't my long term strategy so I didn't want to spend the money.  It wasn't difficult to control the heat.  You just use a heavy brass pipe and you run the torch up and down it, not just in one spot.  I suppose if you had a plexi cover on it it would be easier to guage how fast it was going and when you were done.
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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2010, 03:22:11 AM »

Hm, weird, I couldn't see the video, just a kind of link, so no clue what this dude was doing.

I dunno.  I treat my colonies using the same vapourizer unit that Danno does.  When the colonies are vapourized, all the open spaces are sealed up tight as a button.  Barely can even any vapour be seen coming out of the colony.  That colony is left sealed for 10 minutes.  There are no visible vapours, I do not worry about inhalation of them.  I always wear a good quality gas mask anyways.  My vapour unit is hooked up to long cables that are attached to the battery, they are about 20 feet long and I stand a longs ways off.  There is no way on this good green earth that any fumes could even come close to me. Oh yes, and by the way, I wouldn't do it on a windy day.  I would with a tiny wind, but I would stand up wind.  Don't know what all the panic is about vapourizing with oxalic acid.  It is quick, efficient and kills mites.  Period.  Anyways, just my two cents here.  Have that beautiful, most great day, with that best health. Cindi



Your probably right.  I have not seen it done with my own eyes properly so I probably am a bit paranoid.  One way or the other, the next time I wont be using apistan if I can help it.  For one the cost is crazy.  My next step is making a mite count tray that I can slide in and out the entrance so I know what going on.  I was was contemplating how to do this and was thinking about building one thing or another but after I saw these videos   http://www.extension.org/pages/University_of_Florida_Bee_Disease_Videos  I easily decided on something like the tray in the varroa mite episode.

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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2010, 09:19:11 AM »

the 12 volt vaporizor is best-reason is-the torch and pipe method has no way to control the temp and when oxalic
is heated past sublimation point it then turns to formic acid -and like MB said with formic you can get a high mortality rate with your queens-RDY-B

I didn't know that, but when the OA is heated to the temperature of sublimation it turns to a gas and exits the vaporizer and can't be heated any more.  I imagine you would have to heat it in a closed container to get it any hotter.

It works.  It's probably less than ideal, because ideal would be that we don't have varroa to begin with.  If you (like me) already have a torch, chemical mask, and scrap pipes and want to try OA vaporization to see how it works for you I don't see a lot of reason to buy a new piece of equipment. 

If you were going to treat a lot of hives on a regular basis, then a real vaporizer would probably be faster to use.
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alfred
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« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2010, 09:27:21 AM »

Here is a pipe gizmo I used with plexi cover.


Beekeeping - Oxalic Acid Treatment
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rdy-b
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« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2010, 02:06:34 PM »

the 12 volt vaporizor is best-reason is-the torch and pipe method has no way to control the temp and when oxalic
is heated past sublimation point it then turns to formic acid -and like MB said with formic you can get a high mortality rate with your queens-RDY-B

I didn't know that, but when the OA is heated to the temperature of sublimation it turns to a gas and exits the vaporizer and can't be heated any more.  I imagine you would have to heat it in a closed container to get it any hotter.

It works.  It's probably less than ideal, because ideal would be that we don't have varroa to begin with.  If you (like me) already have a torch, chemical mask, and scrap pipes and want to try OA vaporization to see how it works for you I don't see a lot of reason to buy a new piece of equipment. 

If you were going to treat a lot of hives on a regular basis, then a real vaporizer would probably be faster to use.
  what beekeepers need to understand is how oxaliac reacts to heat before they start playing around with it
then they can decide before they do the treatment what is best-I think everyone needs to understand what they are puting in there hives is-and how it afects the hive
The physical properties of oxalic acid may be of interest in this connection. The stuff one buys is usually oxalic acid dihydrate, which is a crystal which has two water molecules attached to each oxalic acid molecule. The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the following properties for oxalic acid dihydrate:

On heating:

1) The water of hydration leaves at 101.5° C (214.7° F) The water boils off leaving anhydrous oxalic acid crystals.
2) At 157° C (314.6° F) the oxalic acid starts to sublime (goes directly from solid to gas)
3) At 189° C (372.2° F) the oxalic acid which has not yet sublimed decomposes to formic acid and carbon monoxide.

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bee-nuts
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« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2010, 04:12:53 PM »

1) The water of hydration leaves at 101.5° C (214.7° F) The water boils off leaving anhydrous oxalic acid crystals.
2) At 157° C (314.6° F) the oxalic acid starts to sublime (goes directly from solid to gas)
3) At 189° C (372.2° F) the oxalic acid which has not yet sublimed decomposes to formic acid and carbon monoxide.


Thats very nice to know.  I wonder if you could use one of those heat coils from a elctric griddle (I cant remember what you call them) that have the covers and a heat dial.  You could make something with the coils and set it at 350F, check it to make sure its acurate, and tape the dial so it dont move.   A few of these at yard sales and you can do your hives in multiples.
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« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2010, 04:18:14 PM »

people have made all kinds of vaporizers-i think those glow plugs that they use in the vaporizers are set at a certain temp
cant just use any one-control is key-check out these home made machines
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/images/2005/russel2.jpg
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/images/2004/f1030008.jpg
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/cor2004.htm                   cool RDY-B
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 04:32:30 PM by rdy-b » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2010, 09:49:25 PM »

people have made all kinds of vaporizers-i think those glow plugs that they use in the vaporizers are set at a certain temp
cant just use any one-control is key-check out these home made machines
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/images/2005/russel2.jpg
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/images/2004/f1030008.jpg
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/cor2004.htm                   cool RDY-B


I think I would start with the dribble method.  Here is a quote I want to point out from http://www.blackburnbeekeepers.com/FACTORS%20TO%20BE%20CONSIDERED%20WHEN%20USING%20THE.htm
 "Repeated applications are not tolerated well by the bees. Large numbers of bees will become over acidified and fly prematurely and not show as mortality on the hive floor. In colonies free of brood a second treatment would be superfluous anyway."

If I get this right, it mean that you dont give a second application in a short period of time.  Say you were to do a dribble in December.  Come may or june or whatever you decide to make splits, nucs or the like.  I dont see why one could not give the bees in new hive a treatment, then give them there new queen or queen cell the following day or two or something to this effect.  I guess Im getting way ahead of my self any way. 
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« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2010, 09:59:28 PM »

Quote
Come may or june or whatever you decide to make splits, nucs or the like.  I dont see why one could not give the bees in new hive a treatment, then give them there new queen or queen cell the following day or two or something to this effect.  I guess Im getting way ahead of my self any way.
might work for a package -but a split -nuc-Divide would all contain BROOD -Dribel only works when broodles
you can vaporize at timley intervals- Wink RDY-B
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« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2010, 10:51:12 PM »

It means that it does permenant damge to the malpigian tubules of the bees treated.  Once those bees have died, you are treating different bees.  This you can do (treat different bees because the old ones have died), but two treatments on the same bees is a high mortality rate.
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« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2010, 11:06:05 PM »

Makes sense guys.  Any ideas for a different treatment all together during the summer months to help the girls out?  Sugar dusting, pesticides, and drone come are not something I want to do.  If I were to do one of the three it would be sugar but it really seem pointless to me.  Drone culling seems like such a waste of resources and labor for me and the girls.  I guess Ill see how my resistant queens perform compared to my mutts with mite counts.  I cant wait.  I checked the two hives I have not seen for a while and there doing great (of course I forgot my cam).  Im so happy.  Spring is almost here.
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« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2010, 11:57:59 PM »

Last time I treated with anything for anything was 2003.  Some I haven't treated since 2001.  I much prefer my current system.  Less losses to Varroa and less cost and less work.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm
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« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2010, 04:02:10 PM »

Hello, I have made this movie.
The choice of using oxalic acid sublimed resulted after losing for years many families of bees with "oxalic acid drip"
I live in Italy, Rome. The climate in my country does not allow a block of brood to colonies of bees. Thus the treatment "drip" is not very effective against Varroa.
With appropriate protections, as I mentioned briefly in the movie, the risk to the beekeeper are minimized. Many professional beekeepers in Italy to use this method with satisfaction.
I am always at your disposal
Sincerely Bernardino Ferri
sublimation oxalic acid
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« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2010, 04:22:00 PM »

Hello, I have made this movie.
The choice of using oxalic acid sublimed resulted after losing for years many families of bees with "oxalic acid drip"
I live in Italy, Rome. The climate in my country does not allow a block of brood to colonies of bees. Thus the treatment "drip" is not very effective against Varroa.
With appropriate protections, as I mentioned briefly in the movie, the risk to the beekeeper are minimized. Many professional beekeepers in Italy to use this method with satisfaction.
I am always at your disposal
Sincerely Bernardino Ferri

Im assuming your new to this forum?  So, Welcome and thank you for the movie. 

I should have broodless or near broodless periods so I think I will try drip first. 

Enjoy this forum and stay at our disposal.

How are your bees health now?

bee-nuts
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« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2010, 05:28:27 PM »

The dribble is harder on the bees.  .

That is not true at all. It has no affect on spring build up and it has no affect on queens. It is surely the best mite killer nowadays and the less harmfull to human and bees. I use now only trickling because it is enough in my climate.

But it needs total brood brake. 

My bees have not yeat made cleansing flight and I digg hives from one metre snow. But they have quite much brood allready. Just now we have here -15C at night. During day it was -2C.


We use formic acid and thymol as spring treatment if the earlier treatment have not been succesfull.
Basicly one treatment per year is enough. Thanks to short brood period.

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« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2010, 11:00:07 PM »

>>The dribble is harder on the bees.  .

>That is not true at all. It has no affect on spring build up and it has no affect on queens.

And yet the research shows it damages their malpighian tubules and all the documentation I've seen says you can only do one treatment.  Two will shorten their lives too much.  If two does too much then one is doing some damage.  You can vaporize every week for several weeks if you like with no noticeable issues.
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« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2010, 01:12:29 AM »


 I've seen says you can only do one treatment.  Two will shorten their lives too much. 


yes but you must do only one treatment but it clean the hive during winter cluster time that other treatment  is not needed. - if you have a total brood brake in all hives.

It is long story again to repeat the advantage of dripling. It kills larvae and does not work during broodd so don't use it.

To swarms it is easy to use.

Dripling is the only method which you can use in the middle f winter near freezing point.

We have depated 5 years with Michael about this same thing and he will not change his feelings.

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« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2010, 10:43:45 PM »

>yes but you must do only one treatment

Exactly.
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« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2010, 09:15:04 PM »

Hi Everyone.  I'm new to this site.  6 years with my own bees, 2 to 3 hives.

Is there an easy way to measure out 1 gm or 1.5 gm or 2 gm of OA crystals?
For example - x ml or x tsp?
I don't have ready access to a scale with that ability . .
Thanks
Scott
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« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2010, 11:07:03 PM »

Hi Everyone.  I'm new to this site.  6 years with my own bees, 2 to 3 hives.

Is there an easy way to measure out 1 gm or 1.5 gm or 2 gm of OA crystals?
For example - x ml or x tsp?
I don't have ready access to a scale with that ability . .
Thanks
Scott

The digital scale is 10 dollars.
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