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Author Topic: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped  (Read 4745 times)

Offline Greg watkevich

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No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« on: February 15, 2010, 09:42:45 PM »
Made all the parts for 160 frames and initially was planning to use a V shape under the top bar but decided to groove the underside of the top frame bar and insert(glue)a narrow starter strip into the saw kerf for the bees to start their comb.  Is 1/2" to 3/4" enough for a starter?  I don't plan on using any foundation.
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Offline Natalie

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Re: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2010, 09:51:08 PM »
I believe either size would be fine. I use the beveled edge myself and its not that long and the bees have no trouble with it.

Offline buzzbee

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Re: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2010, 10:05:13 PM »
Ive set frames in without any guides or starters:


If there is a good flow or your feeding heavy,they will draw it out.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2010, 04:17:53 AM »
Both work fine.
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bigbearomaha

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Re: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2010, 08:45:23 AM »
When  I cut rabbets on the table saw,  Iget plenty of pieces left over that work perfectly as starter guides.  Just cut them to length and glue or tack in place, you're good to go.

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Offline CountryBee

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Re: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2010, 09:02:43 AM »
Can't I just take the wooden strip that holds the regular foundation on the frame and turn it pointing down instead of flatways?  Did I have to dip it in wax?  If I did I forgot the wax dip step. :-\

Offline fermentedhiker

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Re: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2010, 09:13:44 AM »
Yes you can just flip the wedge and no you didn't need to wax it.  They attach wax to the wood better than melted wax will adhere to it anyways. 
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Offline CountryBee

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Re: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2010, 09:17:32 AM »
Thanks!  I am trying that regression with natural cell in one hive this year and just had a bad daydream about that missing wax coating thing! :-D  Have a great day! :)

Offline Meadlover

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Re: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2010, 09:31:21 PM »
This is an interesting topic - which is better, or what are the advantages and disadvantages of the strip compared to the V?

The strip is obviously quicker and easier to make, and uses less material, however I think the V would allow no place for the SHB to hide, as they seem to love the 90 degree corners where the bees can't get them.

I have tried the starter strips and they are quick and easy to make and use a small amount of wood (I think more of the wood is wastage than strips by the end). Once I work out the best way to cut some V blocks with a table saw (never used one until a few months back) I will make a heap of them and give them ago and compare how they go. With SHB such a problem in sub-tropical Brisbane I think the V bars will be better as far as reducing hiding places for SHB.

Anyone tried both and can comment on how they compare?

ML
« Last Edit: August 02, 2010, 05:52:11 PM by Meadlover »

Offline CountryBee

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Re: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2010, 07:19:07 AM »
Nope, I've just tried strips so far. :-\

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2010, 06:17:46 AM »
>Can't I just take the wooden strip that holds the regular foundation on the frame and turn it pointing down instead of flatways?

Yes.

>  Did I have to dip it in wax?

No.

>  If I did I forgot the wax dip step

It is best to forget it.  The wax won't stick as well as the bees will attach the comb and may cause the comb to fall.  It also will do nothing to encourgage or discourage them.

Either a strip or the bevel works.  I see no reason to do both.  Either works fine.
Michael Bush
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Offline BjornBee

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Re: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2010, 08:27:40 AM »
Thanks!  I am trying that regression with natural cell in one hive this year and just had a bad daydream about that missing wax coating thing! :-D  Have a great day! :)

What are you regressing too?   :?

Standard foundation, as well as smallcell, forces bees to make the comb based on the cells of the foundation. And so both are considered unnatural.

Foundationless, means the bees will draw what they want. Some comb will be smaller, some will be bigger. But it certainly is not something that can be called "regressed". Your bees may or may not regress anything. Much is based on time of the season, flow, genetics, altitude, and other factors.

All the analyzing by some beekeepers of the comb, finding they build some areas smaller and some bigger, means little. The bees will start raising brood depending upon where they are located in January or February in regards to stores. They start raising brood many times on comb other than the smallest comb in the hive. It's not like they say..."Hey girls...better move over there to where the smaller comb is located". That is not how it works. Many times they are either on the sides of the TBH, or the top box of the natural comb hive. Meaning they are laying in larger comb where honey once was stored.

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Offline CountryBee

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Re: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2010, 06:08:58 PM »
With regression I wanted the bees to make their own foundation within the limits of my frames.  Regression - A return to a previous state.  I was trying not to use my pierco frames on a hive (made out of plastic) and trying to see if they will make their own comb, which they are!  It is really cool! :) Thanks!

Offline greenbtree

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Re: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2010, 01:46:28 AM »
Anyone have any pics of the wedge shaped strip you all are talking about?  Having a bit of trouble visualizing...

JC
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Offline VolunteerK9

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Re: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2010, 09:38:11 AM »
Anyone have any pics of the wedge shaped strip you all are talking about?  Having a bit of trouble visualizing...

JC
Here is a good reference

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

Ive got a little of everything in my hives.SC, regular plastic foundation and starter strips. During a flow, the bees (my bees at least) will draw out a foundationless faster than foundation. I wouldnt have believed it either, but they did.

Offline bulldog

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Re: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2010, 04:27:06 PM »
buzzbee, how is it that the comb in your picture is so white, mine are all a pale yellow. does it depend upon the time of year and what they are foraging on ?
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Offline buzzbee

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Re: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2010, 08:36:17 PM »
When wax is white,it is new wax. It does also depend on what they are bringing in and how much the bees are traveling over the comb. If they are capping light colored honey,the comb remains lighter too.
If you are feeding sugar syrup to build bees up,the comb is generally pretty white then too.

Offline CapnChkn

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Re: No foundation: Narrow starter strip or V shaped
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2010, 12:21:01 PM »
I agree with the idea that the groove will just give SHB a place to hide.  The V shaped Top bar may be the very best, but is a lot of work.  I have been experimenting with taking a string made from Toilet paper and attaching that down the length of the bar.  The bees seem to just need a reference at a low point to start the curtaining behavior that they then use to build comb.

I decided on this technique because I was thinking when I was to cut the comb from the bar I would have the stick or "V" would then be in the way.  I later found out I would be leaving about an inch of drawn comb attached to act as a guide to the bees in their next project.
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