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Author Topic: Corporations are not people  (Read 5428 times)
David LaFerney
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« on: January 21, 2010, 10:34:59 PM »

Corporations are not people.

They are more like enormous semi trucks being driven by the CEO and board of directors. 

The owners are the stockholders - many of whom are driving civics on the same roads as the truck - most of them have little or no control over the truck or even who is driving it, they just own a little piece of it. 

The trucks are so big that if they have a mishap it can be catastrophic to many of us, not just the owners. 

The drivers have come to believe that the companies are their own private playthings, and that since they drive the biggest thing on the road that they no longer have to follow the rules - they even write their own paychecks. They don't worry about taking care of the truck so that it can remain valuable for a long time - all they care about is their next bonus.

In case of a crash many people including the owners get hurt - but not the drivers - they get severance packages and walk away.

Every person has a right to a voice and a vote, but corporations are not people.
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2010, 10:47:37 PM »

are you upset about the SCOTUS decision   grin  your spurious argument aside, it was the right decision to make.  after all the attacks on business by this admin, they are probably a little nervous about it.  evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2010, 04:41:37 AM »

are you upset about the SCOTUS decision   grin  your spurious argument aside, it was the right decision to make.  after all the attacks on business by this admin, they are probably a little nervous about it.  evil

Kathy, everyone is entitled to an opinion, look what has happened with 'Golden Sacks' if that is not giving the finger to everyone I don't know what is! angry Surely it is time for these people to be brought down to size? one way or another.
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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2010, 06:49:22 AM »

The direction of where we were headed....no taxes for unions, sweetheart deals for businesses run by the gov, one set of tax payers paying for the next set who are not being taxed, special interest groups (ACORN) benefitting from filling their coffers with tax money......only seems to me as bad. Corporations (and all business, large and small) were the ones going to be taxed...better yet, make that the consumer was going to be taxed, to allow these other groups, (unions, ACORN, auto industry, etc.) just as powerful as the now feared corporations themselves.

Difference is....Dems favored the illegal raping of the this country, the illegal taxing of the few, and handing over of the vote to these other groups, while being dead wrong. The corporations now have that same power, only now it's legal. And I find it ironic that this same group backing Obama and all the crap that has been going on, now all of a sudden is crying foul over this decision.

So union leaders, ACORN, communists, installed puppet leaders to government seized companies....all sneaking in the back door of the white house is fine for the left. But CEO's from Walmart, Coke, and Dupont....doing the same is going to be all of a sudden wrong. I actually hope it's Disney, Coke, and Walmart...since I own stock in those companies. I'd love to have tax free earnings and sweetheart deals without having to once again join a union, or move to Nebraska.

Dems crap of capitolism.....now these same business that are being crapped on, can spend money on the issues (and candidates) they choose. Very interesting indeed. Seems maybe this decision may have some impact for the "Oh No OBama!" crap going on. What was going on previous to yesterday, is no better than what will be happening tomorrow.

Now, the only thing I wonder, is how many are going to miss the real points, and the sarcasm of my comments. grin
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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2010, 07:24:12 AM »

Corporations are not people.

Every person has a right to a voice and a vote, but corporations are not people.
Legally, corporations are "persons".

Do a search on "corporate personhood" and you'll have plenty of reading.

From Wikipedia:
Despite not being natural persons, corporations are recognized by the law to have rights and responsibilities like actual people. Corporations can exercise human rights against real individuals and the state, and they may be responsible for human rights violations. Just as they are "born" into existence through its members obtaining a certificate of incorporation, they can "die" when they lose money into insolvency. Corporations can even be convicted of criminal offences, such as fraud and manslaughter.
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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2010, 08:20:06 AM »

The direction of where we were headed....no taxes for unions, sweetheart deals for businesses run by the gov, one set of tax payers paying for the next set who are not being taxed, special interest groups (ACORN) benefitting from filling their coffers with tax money......only seems to me as bad. Corporations (and all business, large and small) were the ones going to be taxed...better yet, make that the consumer was going to be taxed, to allow these other groups, (unions, ACORN, auto industry, etc.) just as powerful as the now feared corporations themselves.

Difference is....Dems favored the illegal raping of the this country, the illegal taxing of the few, and handing over of the vote to these other groups, while being dead wrong. The corporations now have that same power, only now it's legal. And I find it ironic that this same group backing Obama and all the crap that has been going on, now all of a sudden is crying foul over this decision.

So union leaders, ACORN, communists, installed puppet leaders to government seized companies....all sneaking in the back door of the white house is fine for the left. But CEO's from Walmart, Coke, and Dupont....doing the same is going to be all of a sudden wrong. I actually hope it's Disney, Coke, and Walmart...since I own stock in those companies. I'd love to have tax free earnings and sweetheart deals without having to once again join a union, or move to Nebraska.

Dems crap of capitolism.....now these same business that are being crapped on, can spend money on the issues (and candidates) they choose. Very interesting indeed. Seems maybe this decision may have some impact for the "Oh No OBama!" crap going on. What was going on previous to yesterday, is no better than what will be happening tomorrow.

Now, the only thing I wonder, is how many are going to miss the real points, and the sarcasm of my comments. grin

Yup, what he said. On another note, the Dems have been infiltrated by the Progressive Movement ( easier of the 2 Parties ) who want nothing more than the complete destruction of Capitalism, complete Rule over every Citizen, Corporations like General Electric are in bed with this Movement ( Cape & Trade ), therefore the Obama Camp is picking and choosing what Corporations will thrive and what Corporations will suffer.

Watch the Other Hand !!!!!
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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2010, 09:05:40 AM »

Oh, and I think the government has the right idea...slap fees all over those soulless entities and make them pay.   That worked so good with the phone companies, why not all companies!!
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David LaFerney
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2010, 10:42:50 AM »

your spurious argument aside

Spurious in what way?  Because it disagrees with you?  It's an analogy.  It's not 100% accurate.  But it's more accurate than the assertion that corporations are people.  Nowthat is spurious. 

Corporations are legal constructs.  They are analogous to people, but just like corporate CEOs aren't really (usually) truck drivers - corporations aren't really people.   Lots of people in corporations - stock holders, employees, client companies (and their stockholders and employees), parent companies, families of those people - all of whom enjoy free speech and the right to vote on behalf of their vested interests. 

Very few people can justify or afford to spend hundreds of thousands (or millions) of dollars to influence public policy. But, the ones that can and do - more power to them - because at least it is their money.  Corporate CEOs often (usually) play with other peoples money.

BTW, we aren't just talking about American corporations getting the green light to buy our public policy makers.  Most of the uber big players are multinationals like AIG, Shell, Dubai ports, etc.

The politicians are already counting their money.

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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2010, 01:25:50 PM »

Quote
your spurious argument aside, it was the right decision to make

Kathy, are you suggesting that the founders intended for The East India Company to be considered a person?
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2010, 02:11:18 PM »

Quote
Very few people can justify or afford to spend hundreds of thousands (or millions) of dollars to influence public policy. But, the ones that can and do - more power to them - because at least it is their money.  Corporate CEOs often (usually) play with other peoples money.

Quote
Kathy, are you suggesting that the founders intended for The East India Company to be considered a person?

who plays with other peoples money more than the government?  who plays with others money more than unions?  at lease corporations are supposed to be accountable to someone.  whether or not the stock holders and boards actually pay attention is another matter...and their problem.

you guys are looking at this from the wrong end.  M-F was an unconstitutional law.  the constitution provides for free speech unrestricted by the federal government.  it does not make exceptions, or inclusions; trying to do so, is a very bad road to travel.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2010, 02:15:24 PM »

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Kathy, everyone is entitled to an opinion, look what has happened with 'Golden Sacks' if that is not giving the finger to everyone I don't know what is!  Surely it is time for these people to be brought down to size? one way or another.


that's what market forces do.  the banking mess was a direct result of congress interfering with the market by forcing lending institutions to lend money to those who should not have qualified for those loans.  it took a few years for things to crash, but crash they did.  we are doing it again, by propping up Fannie and Freddy and propping up mortgages that people can not pay.

the market weeds out bad companies and people.  the result of interference is always disaster.  sometimes it takes a few years for that disaster to manifest.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2010, 03:56:49 PM »

Quote
Kathy, everyone is entitled to an opinion, look what has happened with 'Golden Sacks' if that is not giving the finger to everyone I don't know what is!  Surely it is time for these people to be brought down to size? one way or another.


that's what market forces do.  the banking mess was a direct result of congress interfering with the market by forcing lending institutions to lend money to those who should not have qualified for those loans.  it took a few years for things to crash, but crash they did.  we are doing it again, by propping up Fannie and Freddy and propping up mortgages that people can not pay. the market weeds out bad companies and people.  the result of interference is always disaster.  sometimes it takes a few years for that disaster to manifest.
[/quote



Some companies were just to big to allow to fail, unfortunately.
Goldman-Sachs have just announced bonuses of an average $.5 million per employee...GS would have gone bust without Joe Public bailing them out. You undoubtedly have an analogy that blames the Government, but this institution and others like them were guilty of corporate greed, gambling in derivatives etc. they may as well have gone to La's Vegas! We have the same problem here with Lloyd's/RBS and Barclays, they need splitting up into domestic and speculative banks so as to allow market forces to let them go bust if needs be! maybe that threat would wake up the share holders and encorage them to take more interest in the companies they own. The public must feel the same in the US as in the UK, who are the idiots running these institutions, paying themselves $.5m bonuses whilst throwing millions of people on the scrap heap? There should be no bonuses until all the bailout money is repaid.
Another simplistic argument from across the pond , but it makes me feel better! Smiley   
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2010, 04:03:30 PM »

Quote
Kathy, everyone is entitled to an opinion, look what has happened with 'Golden Sacks' if that is not giving the finger to everyone I don't know what is!  Surely it is time for these people to be brought down to size? one way or another.


that's what market forces do.  the banking mess was a direct result of congress interfering with the market by forcing lending institutions to lend money to those who should not have qualified for those loans.  it took a few years for things to crash, but crash they did.  we are doing it again, by propping up Fannie and Freddy and propping up mortgages that people can not pay. the market weeds out bad companies and people.  the result of interference is always disaster.  sometimes it takes a few years for that disaster to manifest.
[/quote


Some companies were just to big to allow to fail, unfortunately.
Goldman-Sachs have just announced bonuses of an average $.5 million per employee...GS would have gone bust without Joe Public bailing them out. You undoubtedly have an analogy that blames the Government, but this institution and others like them were guilty of corporate greed, gambling in derivatives etc. they may as well have gone to La's Vegas! We have the same problem here with Lloyd's/RBS and Barclays, they need splitting up into domestic and speculative banks so as to allow market forces to let them go bust if needs be! maybe that threat would wake up the share holders and encorage them to take more interest in the companies they own. The public must feel the same in the US as in the UK, who are the idiots running these institutions, paying themselves $.5m bonuses whilst throwing millions of people on the scrap heap? There should be no bonuses until all the bailout money is repaid.
Another simplistic argument from across the pond , but it makes me feel better! Smiley   


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Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2010, 04:27:53 PM »

most, if not all, of that money has been paid back and with interest.  this is not about paying back money, it is about a government power grab by way of class warfare.

i can not say whether stabilizing the banking industry was a good thing.  i know plenty of smart people who say it was necessary.  my knee jerk reaction is "let them fail".  that aside, the governments decision to bail out the banks does not give them license to regulate pay, or to nationalize companies by way of stock acquisition.  same with the auto industry.  they should have been let to fail, but bailing them out does not mean taking them over.

this is not Venezuela.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2010, 04:45:10 PM »

>>>>that aside, the governments decision to bail out the banks does not give them license to regulate pay,>>>>

Kathy, when the banks lend money, they definitely control what it is spent for. Why should any other lender, IE: government, not do the same.
Try borrowing money to buy a house, then go to vegas with it and see how fast the bank comes down on you. Yes, the government should control how the loan is spent, until it is paid back in full.
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2010, 05:09:40 PM »

because banks are businesses and the government is the government...which is obviously not even run like a business.

yes, a private lender dose have control over what the money is lent for, but to follow your analogy, they do not have control over how you spend your income, who you hire and what you pay them, etc.  a bank may lone for a new building for your business, but they do not tell you that you must reduce the pay of your employees or cancel Christmas bonuses until you have paid them back.

along the same lines, the banks are paying the feds back with interest.  what is our government doing with the money.  will they return it to the taxpayers who have funded this bailout?  i think not.  they also loaned to auto companies who are still failing.  what will be the govt response to that?  will they tell the unions to take a pay and benefit cut?  will they dictate business practices?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2010, 05:24:00 PM »

The major unions in this country have already had free reign with their checkbooks politically.The business world will not be voting. They may promote a candidate or place an ad but they will not have a vote.maybe taxation without representation comes to mind in this new era of big government.
 What do you think about the idea of the banks that gave money back,plus the interest.By legislation,his money was to be used for debt reduction.But,our fearless leaders have found better uses. And Obama has said just because they have paid back their debt ,that that is not enough. We must tax the banks now. And never mind the fact that you may have been a bank that did not accept any of this money,you are going to be taxed on a benefit you could have received.
Why can't people realize that taxes are expenses,and they only get passed on. I'm sure some of you smokers out there can relate to what I mean.
Do people actuallly think someone is going to risk going into business if the chance at having profits robbed away at the whim of a political machine can make them nonprofit?

Quote:"Corporate CEOs often (usually) play with other peoples money."
Just as most of the union dues that very often do not reflect the views of the rank and file.
 
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David LaFerney
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2010, 05:48:34 PM »

Quote
your spurious argument aside, it was the right decision to make

Kathy, are you suggesting that the founders intended for The East India Company to be considered a person?

If I remember correctly corporations as we know them were not allowed under the constitution as originally framed and had to be chartered by congress for very specific purposes and periods of time. 

The courts changed that about the time of the civil war when they chose to somehow interpret the 14th amendment (which was primarily intended to do away with slavery) to extend "personhood" to chartered corporations.  I think that is what you call "judicial activism".

I don't care what the courts say it's no more true to say that corporations are people than it was to say that a black man was 3/5 of a person.
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« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2010, 05:52:34 PM »

Quote
If I remember correctly corporations as we know them were not allowed under the constitution as originally framed and had to be chartered by congress for very specific purposes and periods of time. 


can you find that for me?

everything about the civil war was activism.  Lincoln pretty much threw the constitution in the trash to do what he did. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2010, 06:32:52 PM »

Quote
you guys are looking at this from the wrong end.  M-F was an unconstitutional law.  the constitution provides for free speech unrestricted by the federal government.  it does not make exceptions, or inclusions; trying to do so, is a very bad road to travel.

Kathy, given your readings/knowledge of the founding fathers, I was asking you to hypothesize as to what would be their view of East India Company as a person...  Are you saying that you think they would have agreed that East India Company was a person?

Thanks,

...Tim
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