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Author Topic: Corporations are not people  (Read 5448 times)
cidersabuzzin
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« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2010, 12:14:32 PM »



Quote
 I'll try one    more   time   smiley

it is not an exact analogy, but i hope it helps.
The use of Haiti was just a question of scale! Haiti has nothing to do with the US, re: our discussion.

I think it's.....died....the.....death....now metaphorically speaking, which I'm sure you meant re the 'thousands' etc. For Gods sake don't drag the EU into it! or I may be persuaded into a right wing rant. Wink

Kathy, thanks for the banter Smiley
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Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...
David LaFerney
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« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2010, 12:30:36 PM »

"Haiti... it is one of the poorest countries in our part of the word and that is their own doing..."

To a certain extent that is probably the case.  Haiti has been victimized by their own leaders for sure, but at this point (previous even to the recent disaster)  They have too many people for their environment to support and they can't get past the choice of having to eat next years seed to avoid starvation today.  

I was there last year, and the Haitians that I saw were probably better off than most, and they were emaciated.

I'm sure that you know they agreed to pay huge reparations to France for having been slaves.  Much of that money was raised by the sale of timber.  The extensive unsustainable logging caused topsoil erosion and environmental degradation.  Foreign aid has allowed the population to exceed the environmental and economic carrying capacity of the country.  

So yes it is true that foreign aid, just like any kind of bail out, usually has far reaching unintended negative consequences.

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reinbeau
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« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2010, 01:12:41 PM »



I'm sure that you know they agreed to pay huge reparations to France for having been slaves.
Wait, they paid France because they were slaves?  Explain that. 
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cidersabuzzin
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« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2010, 03:42:24 PM »



I'm sure that you know they agreed to pay huge reparations to France for having been slaves.
Wait, they paid France because they were slaves?  Explain that. 

The French always were one to get their pound (or should I say kilo) of flesh and sell it back to you as Haute-Cuisine. At least from the EU! Wink
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Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...
reinbeau
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« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2010, 04:22:18 PM »

But that doesn't explain it to me - they were slaves, they paid reparations?  For what?  Being set free? 
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David LaFerney
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« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2010, 05:24:43 PM »



I'm sure that you know they agreed to pay huge reparations to France for having been slaves.
Wait, they paid France because they were slaves?  Explain that.  

Haiti (Sainto Domingo then I think) was a French colony that used slave labor to grow mostly sugar.  During the same period that Napoleon was trying to conquer Europe the slaves rose up in a bloody revolt.  Because the French army was busy trying to take over the world in Europe they made a deal to grant Haiti their independence from France but in return for not sending in the military the French got the Haitians to agree to pay reparations for the financial sacrifice of freeing the slaves and land.  It was a fairly large amount - in the billions in today money - which was finally paid off in the 1940s. I think.  

This treaty with Haiti caused the French to decide to just cut their losses in the new world and raise a bit more money to pay for their European adventure by selling the Louisiana territory to the young US of A for something like 12 cents and acre - thus tripling the land mass of the United States for like a case of beer.

Haiti was one of the first countries in the new world besides us to win their independence. They started out deep in debt, and have been poor ever since.

If the Haitian slaves had not of revolted we probably would not have acquired the Louisiana purchase, and most of you people west of the Mississippi might be either Mexicans or French. Imagine that.

You should look into it though because most of the crap I spout I make up as I go along.
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cidersabuzzin
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« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2010, 05:33:13 PM »

But that doesn't explain it to me - they were slaves, they paid reparations?  For what?  Being set free? 
But of course monsieur! one does not let lots of slaves free for nothing, a business must make a profit, no?
I'm sorry, I don't know anything about Haitian history to give you a definitive answer but I bet its true! Smiley
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Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...
kathyp
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« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2010, 06:07:00 PM »

the French made a gazillion dollars farming and exporting from Haiti.  why didn't the Haitians?  it also has the potential to be a vacation paradise like it's neighbor.  no one will go there while it is so unstable.

the French managed to FUBAR most of it's colonies, but like all things bad, sometimes you just have to move on and forget about it.  why has Haiti not been able to do what the Dominican Republic has been able to do.  surly it can't be because one was French and one was Spanish?  even old debt does not explain it because they have gotten aid forever.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
David LaFerney
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« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2010, 08:07:28 PM »

Why has Haiti not been able to do what the Dominican Republic has been able to do.  surly it can't be because one was French and one was Spanish?  even old debt does not explain it because they have gotten aid forever.

It sounds like you might have a theory?

Seriously,  When Haiti got its independence in the way that it did they lost most of the skilled and educated people who might have been instrumental in building a viable economy.  Then in order to pay the debt and feed their selves they impoverished the environmental resources.  Anything that might have been left by the 1900s was bled dry by brutal corrupt leaders - the Duvaleirs.  Along the way most of educated people who had the means to leave did.   It's an island with too many poor uneducated people and too few resources to support a viable economy or stable government.

You should read "Collapse" by Jared Diamond.  It investigates why various societies became non-viable and disappeared.  Very interesting.  If you're a nerd.
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

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reinbeau
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« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2010, 09:39:38 PM »

Thank you, David, for the crib-note version, that makes sense to me now Smiley
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« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2010, 01:54:49 AM »

the French made a gazillion dollars farming and exporting from Haiti.  why didn't the Haitians?

"Baby Doc." Duvalier. A ruthless murderous dictator who pillaged Haiti (around the late 70's early 80's?) - robbed the country blind Retired and (is still?) living in the "lap of luxury" in the south of France.
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David LaFerney
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« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2010, 08:45:14 AM »

Thank you, David, for the crib-note version, that makes sense to me now Smiley

You're welcome.
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

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cidersabuzzin
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« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2010, 09:45:58 AM »

the French made a gazillion dollars farming and exporting from Haiti.  why didn't the Haitians?

"Baby Doc." Duvalier. a ruthless murderous dictator who pillaged Haiti (around the late 70's early 80's?) - robbed the country blind Retired and (is still?) living in the "lap of luxury" in the south of France.

Was this not a classic case for 'Regime Change' that seems so popular now? Doh! I forgot, the contry has no oil!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 03:44:03 AM by cidersabuzzin » Logged

Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...
kathyp
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« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2010, 10:06:02 AM »

Quote
Doh, I forgot, the contry has no oil!

if you consider it, you may find you do not want to go there.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
cidersabuzzin
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« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2010, 04:14:53 AM »

Quote
Doh, I forgot, the contry has no oil!

if you consider it, you may find you do not want to go there.

Are you trying to shut this down?
I have considered it.
Iraq has oil, the Falkland Islands have potentially billions of barrels of oil. Maggie made out it was for a few islanders, pull the other one! When was the last invasion for regime change that 'big oil' didn't have its finger in the pie! Oh,I forgot again,Grenada.
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Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...
kathyp
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« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2010, 10:11:02 AM »

i would never try to shut down a conversation.  i just feel it's fair to warn you that if you open that can of worms, i'm probably going to use it for fish bait. 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
David LaFerney
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« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2010, 11:35:00 AM »

i would never try to shut down a conversation.  i just feel it's fair to warn you that if you open that can of worms, i'm probably going to use it for fish bait. 



Even if his point is incorrect it "walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck"  On the other hand it's totally off subject.  Besides, lots of times it isn't oil at all, sometimes it's bananas.  evil
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« Reply #57 on: January 27, 2010, 11:53:06 AM »

Put me on the list of those thinking this was the Right SCOTUS decision...for some of the Wrong reasons. I've always had a problem with the "not only do Corporations have rights - but they trump yours too" way of thinking. If they (and other special interest groups) have enough "excess capital" to throw Billions of $$$ into a campaign fund in an alleged attempt to "improve" the government..I'm of the opinion that a good portion of that should go directly toward reducing the National Debt, and a smaller portion to the actual campaign. Individual contributions would not be so "taxed". I'm just a bit tired of "We the People" being looked upon as if we have the "lesser" rights. What we have locked in out "private property" (as the courts view our vehicles) is not really our private property if we park it upon their real estate. The NFA 34 is enforced completely differently upon Corporations than it is upon individuals. And don't get me started about what has happened to our Constitutionally Guaranteed Right to own property.....Try keeping your land and house if you don't pay Property Taxes.
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cidersabuzzin
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« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2010, 03:27:44 PM »

i would never try to shut down a conversation.  i just feel it's fair to warn you that if you open that can of worms, I'm probably going to use it for fish bait.  



Even if his point is incorrect it "walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck"  On the other hand it's totally off subject.  Besides, lots of times it isn't oil at all, sometimes it's bananas.  evil

Now theres a thought! Wink Bananas and fish. rolleyes

We are still in the realms of corporations if not people, then again people make decisions on our behalf that we not always agree with. Mr Blair is to go in front of the Iraq inquiry (in UK) on Friday, to try and talk his way out of the no 'WMD dilemma' AKA regime change that the lawyers believe to have been unlawful in International Law. He unfortunately will get away with it and go his merry (after dinner speech, $100k a time) way. While your and our service men and women pick up the tab in Afghanistan. That's the part I don't like in this whole sorry mess. So Kathy if you want 'to use it as bait', bring it on, as you would say. Sad but please don't fall off the edge! after all I'm an OAP that worries about you Wink
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 04:13:09 PM by cidersabuzzin » Logged

Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...
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