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Author Topic: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!  (Read 7056 times)
Hemlock
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« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2010, 02:27:05 PM »

BMAC,
Bees shred paper so I wonder why they don't do the same to cardboard.  Do you also vent from the top.

Finski,
do you use a large box filled with linen on top of your hives?  I vaguely recall Europeans using something like that.  I can't remember what it's called though.
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Finski
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« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2010, 02:52:41 PM »

.
Beekeepers use many kind of material in upper insulation. Even newspapers.

I have 10 mm wood panel towards bees and 7 cm blastic foam matress. That structure stands 20 years and piece of matress stands some years. All are recycled material.

I have tried many materials. Bees gnaw many of them  soft and mice make nest in it if they can.

Many material make dust like  rubbish onto frames. Some sticks to fingers when   fingers have resin or honey.

My inner cover leans against in the picture  .  They are all same.

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podius
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« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2010, 06:52:26 PM »

podius,

Sheep?  No.  But llama & alpaca, yes.  How thick did you make it?

I took the wool and fluffed it up enough to fill up the box(scrap box's that I had left over from cutting down deeps and made into insulated top boxes.). I was given a feed sack full and it insulated 12 hives perfectly.
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John VT
Spooner, WI(Northwest WI-up in the nose)
equipment---All medium 10 frame boxes, top entrance's, no foundation frames and mann lake pf 120's (7 hives)
Wynoochee_newbee_guy
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« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2010, 10:50:46 PM »

So my Question is this? What do Ferrel "wild Honey bees" Do in the winter? with no one to provide hive wraps or insulation? So what do they do? they are not all closed up like a langtrom hive. and they do just fine. Like I said befor and will say again I keep my sbb open and my bees do well its moisture that kills in the winter not the cold.
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Finski
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« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2010, 12:08:39 AM »

Like I said befor and will say again I keep my sbb open and my bees do well its moisture that kills in the winter not the cold.


I say that it is nonsence. When food is finish, bees will be dead for cold durin24 hours.
Cold kills hives more than moisture.  We have just now here -20C - -25 C.

You can handle moisture and heat questions at same time like in human houses, why not in beehives.

When you live at home, do you think that cold is better than moist! You just handle boath things.

*********************

http://www.wunderground.com/US/WA/Ocean_Shores.html

How much you have frost there now?

« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 12:20:27 AM by Finski » Logged

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kathyp
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« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2010, 12:37:11 AM »

if you leave your screened boards open in our winters, the cold will kill them.  i take it you have not looked at to many "wild" hives?  the are in a confined space and have one very small opening.  they do not provide themselves ventilation.  there is also nothing magic about them.  if they choose a bad spot, they will die. 
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Wynoochee_newbee_guy
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« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2010, 12:41:54 AM »

um I leave my SBB open my bees are flying all is good so please tell me what I did wrong I know I get way more rain then you do in boring Oregon, my bees do very well.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2010, 01:07:10 AM »

um I leave my SBB open my bees are flying all is good so please tell me what I did wrong I know I get way more rain then you do in boring Oregon, my bees do very well.

you have a system that works for you-I read how you do your set up and I think the bails of straw is what is keeping your chill factor down -do you have any colonies set up without the wind break Smiley I have done the srtaw bails and was glad i had them -but when i moved to a better location i was glad to get rid of them-any way you have engineered your system for your needs -one thing for sure they need every advantage they can get in the blowing rain- Wink RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2010, 02:51:25 AM »

.
In our country bees have not tree cavities to settle. They go into brick chimneys and die there every winter.

When I have used uninsutated tree boxes, the food consumption is 50% bigger than in insulated box. So inestead of 20 kg they need 30 kg sugar and 30 kg is not possible to put into 10  Langstroth frames.

In my hives bees not die for cold or for moisture. They are not alternatives, for what you want to kill your hives.
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« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2010, 06:22:24 AM »

if you leave your screened boards open in our winters, the cold will kill them.  i take it you have not looked at to many "wild" hives?  the are in a confined space and have one very small opening.  they do not provide themselves ventilation.  there is also nothing magic about them.  if they choose a bad spot, they will die.  
You have to remember that they usually attach comb at the top of that cavity which provides some insulating value.The tree,as long as it is not frozen will wick away the moisture better than a board.
Finskis point about cold is that if it is colder inside bees need a lot more stores to maintain cluster temperature.You need bees to meatbolize honey to produce heat.
  If you then feed syrup to a cold hive that is starving,you create much more moisture than can be tolerated by the bees.i think a lot of these problems can be avoided if you get the syrup fed early enough to have enough for the winter capped and sealed from the moisture before it gets cold.
a gallon of oil will only put so much heat in your house. Open the windows when the furnace is on,and it takes a lot more oil to stay warm.
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Finski
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« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2010, 09:46:27 AM »

.
In my country many use a mesh floor open during winter, and they bees are alive in spring.
But it makes not worse the solid bottom.

a mesh bottom come into use with Danish polyhives 20 years ago. As far as I know, no one used
such before that. Others say it varroa bottom.

If you have a mesh floor, don't keep then upper ventilation.

If you have solid bottom, keep then finger size upper opening.

If you want to save winter food and to get faster spring build up, keep instulated brood boxes.

Some condensation makes no harm to bees.

a dead hive doe not make you a bad beekeeper. What ever domestic animal you keep, sometimes some animal will die and it was not your fault. It just happens.
.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 02:15:03 AM by Finski » Logged

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weBEE Jammin
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« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2010, 02:04:17 PM »

I keep SBBs on my hives all year round (drier & warmer climate); and I drive T-posts on the north side of my hives to fasten plywood to, for a wind/snow breaks. I also use those leftover political plastic signs (might as well get some use out of them!) overhanging the front porches and weighted on top of my hives. I have never had any moisture problems in any of my hives.
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Hemlock
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« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2010, 02:18:17 PM »

weBEE Jammin

Did you mean to say that you leave your SBB's 'OPEN' all year long?  As apposed to mine which are closed off right now.
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Finski
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« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2010, 03:03:11 PM »

I have never had any moisture problems in any of my hives.

However, I hunt for honey, not for moisture scores.

I know much beekeepers which have never problems. Strange!

But in my my beekeeping the heat is very important thing. I do not want to ventilate
it out.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 04:05:06 PM by Finski » Logged

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Hemlock
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« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2010, 04:39:57 PM »

Strange it is.  I made this post due to one hive that's had water issues last winter & this winter.  Yet, my other hive has always been completely dry.  Same equipment too.  Those other bees manage to get through Winter without any condensation problems.  Looking forward to re-queening the 'wet' colony this year.  Anyone want to bet the moisture problem might go away then.
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Sparky
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« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2010, 06:57:07 PM »

The resposses to this post seem to be typical of the (ask 10 different beekeeps a question and you will get 9 different answers.) In this past summer I talked to a old beekeeper from West Virginia that was 40+ years in the craft and what he told me come as a shock. He said ( you cannot kill bees from cold. What kills them is moisture from condensation dripping on the bees. ) He switched all of his hives to SBB in the last 13 years of beekeeping,that he leaves open year round. He claims that he has lost very few hives after the switch, compared to before. Now I did not ask anything about if he uses any kind of upper ventilation or not. I run screened bottoms that have insulation under them, that has small areas along the sides and back cut out to let ventilate but do not think I would run them wide open. After reading some of the test findings with SBB's and it's influence on mite populations I think that they are still better left somewhat closed in the winter to provide just enough air to keep the condensation to a minimum, especially if there is any kind of upper venting going on.
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Wynoochee_newbee_guy
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« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2010, 07:44:05 PM »

um I leave my SBB open my bees are flying all is good so please tell me what I did wrong I know I get way more rain then you do in boring Oregon, my bees do very well.

you have a system that works for you-I read how you do your set up and I think the bails of straw is what is keeping your chill factor down -do you have any colonies set up without the wind break Smiley I have done the srtaw bails and was glad i had them -but when i moved to a better location i was glad to get rid of them-any way you have engineered your system for your needs -one thing for sure they need every advantage they can get in the blowing rain- Wink RDY-B
yes the straw bails work well for a wind break and in the spring the straw gets tossed in to the composter and I get some great compost out of it. my Friend who lives 40 miles sw of me did not do well this year his starved out. with plenty of stores just two frames away. but the straw wind break was taught to me by and old beek.
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Wynoochee_newbee_guy
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« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2010, 07:46:33 PM »

.
In my country many use a mesh floor open during winter, and they bees are alive in spring.
But it makes not worse the solid bottom.

a mesh bottom come into use with Danish polyhives 20 years ago. As far as I know, no one used
such before that. Others say it varroa bottom.

If you have a mesh floor, don't keep then upper ventilation.

If you have solid bottom, keep then finger size solid bottom.

If you want to save winter food and to get faster spring build up, keep instulated brood boxes.

Some condensation makes no harm to bees.

a dead hive doe not make you a bad beekeeper. What ever domestic animal you keep, sometimes some animal will die and it was not your fault. It just happens.

.


well said
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Finski
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« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2010, 02:16:04 AM »


I ment: If you have solid bottom, keep then finger size upper entrance.
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Finski
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« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2010, 04:48:43 AM »

.
Condensation and ventilation is a huge problem in our human houses.

When the first energy crisis came 1975, folks start to minimize ventilation and add insulation.

Results were of tremendous. Many houses became mold bombs and a lot of humans became sick.

It has been long time but problem continues. One difficulty is many kind of material which we have not experience.  I know that many people act against orders and use "common sence" and the house begin to rotten.

And what is this to do with beekeeping. The issue is difficult even to us who live in cold country and energy cost is huge.  But when I have discussed with US and British beekeepers, very few understand that means insulation and dew point or relative moisture. Order is simlpe: Add ventilation!

Wrapping or insulating hives is very odd job. Folks talk about how to get hives alive over winter.
To me more important is how fast is spring build up and how early hives are ready to get surplus.
To get hives ovet winter is very simple job. But nosema spoil every year some hives.

I do not try to be a perfect beekeeper. I keep 20% extra hives with which I compensate losses. Mostly they are queen problems which I note during spring. If the hive dies for starving, it surely has brood over winter. That is a strain question and local adaptation.

In Canada insulated hives are quite a new "invention".
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