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Author Topic: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!  (Read 7802 times)
Finski
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« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2010, 01:38:21 AM »

.
Thanks buzzbee!!!

And one more, the coldest time of the year is not a time to go nurse bees or feed the bees. '
Even iff how much a beekeeper is nervous, donn't go to disturb their sleep.

When you knock the hive, It becomes  ready to defend the hive against enemy and rises temp from 23 C to 40C.  It takes 24 hours to get calm again.

That is why they start to fly out too and hundreds of bees will die.

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Wynoochee_newbee_guy
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« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2010, 01:56:09 AM »

ok This is what I do to keep my hives warm and dry
1. open SBB and I mean Open!
2. i put on a empty super lay down news paper and place 10 pounds of dry sugar on
3. I shim the inner cover up off the super at 2/8th inch gap place top cover on place cinder block on.
4 tilt hive slightly forward helps rain roll off better.
5 last build wind walls from straw bails to keep the wind off.
all my bees do just fine And I live on the southern end of the Olympic Rainforest we get feet of rain a year not inches. and I don't have mold my bees do well. I don't wrap my hives with tar paper. so maybe you might want to try this next year.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 02:07:48 AM by Wynoochee_newbee_guy » Logged

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Finski
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« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2010, 02:02:47 AM »

OK then...
This is what I'll do
1). Put sugar on top of the inner cover
2). Insulate the T-cover with styrofoam
3). Open the closed SBB a half inch to aid in circulation.

Does anyone see a landmine in this list?

Thanks to all of you.

Yes, it is pure tank mine

Forget the sugar

Don't use styrofoam in that place to insulate because it blocks the moisture and generate mould and rotten wood. Use something which let the moisture move trough the stuff.  I do not know what you have. Stone wool, plastic foam matres...

Half inch let mice to go in. Open at least the whole entrance and put there a mouseguard.
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Finski
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« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2010, 02:12:22 AM »

leave the SBB open all the way! its not the cold that harms the girls it the damp condesation.

REALLY STUPID ADVICE! It is like in the car: Motor is more important than wheels. No wheels are more important than air in the wheel.  --- can't you take care of them all Huh

You must be so clever that the hive gives heat protection and the hive is dry ENOUGH.

Think about your home when its is cold and rainy?

* when bees have a warm box, they consume too much winter food  --- they are alive in spring when you open the hive.

* arrange a LITTLE VENTILATION that air changes inside like it changes at you home.


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rdy-b
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« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2010, 02:45:54 AM »

                                                       



                                                               pop
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buzzbee
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« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2010, 06:32:36 AM »

Hemlock,
If you were to put starw or some type of breathable insulation on top of the inner cover,the inner cover below the vent box may no longer be the coldest part of the hive. Right now the top is coldest,maybe letting it rain on your bees.Fill the upper arera with dry straw or something to insulate the ineer lid to prevent the heat loss and still let moisture out.
Here is where just by letting the hive be warmer inside than the temp is out lowers the "relative"humidity.
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Hemlock
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« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2010, 12:43:41 PM »

Good Grief!  I think I stepped in something.  Well Thank you for all your answers.  So to respond...


rdy-b,

Cool video, I subscribed.  One question though. What do the bees do with the news paper?  Don't they shred it?

-I see what you did there. Ha ha!


buzzbee,

Like I said I found the T-cover & inner cover dry.  The water was in linear puddles that matched the position of the frames.  The water was not strictly in the middle like it came through the hole in the inner cover.  So I'm stuck trying to figure out which surface is the culprit.


finski,
-oy, The Sugar Argument.  The water cold dripping through the bees will probably disturb their 'sleep' more than me taking 5 minutes to toss in some sugar on a 50 F degree day (11 C). 

-I would not block the vents in the vent box with the styrofoam.  I would leave a tight crawlspace in the vent box.  It would keep the heat down by the bees but allow the moisture to evacuate.

-Using permeable insulation is a good idea.  I've seen videos of how they do that in Europe.  However I'd rather get the moisture out of the hive than let it build a frost pocket, high in the hive, safely away from the bees.

-Yes an unprotected gap might lead to mice.  I'll cover it with a steel mesh.

-Tsk, tsk.  No advice has been 'stupid' here.  You should know that not all climates are the same.  Do you really think you methods would work in, let's say, Texas?  There are many universal practices but also numerous regional ones too. 

Wynoochee_newbee_guy,
-I asked my bee club about leaving the SBB open.  Absolutely no one does that around here.  However, I gave it a try since the arguments for it, I thought, were good ones.  My problem was the with a single Deep on this hive.  Last month the bees were mere inches away from 20 F degree temps day after day.  That's when I got uncomfortable about it and closed it off.

-I understand blocking the wind.  I couldn't shake the idea that it create a cubby for critters & such to use the same way the bees would.  Plus I'm rabidly anti-straw bale.  Nothing but cockroach breeding farms they are.  Get all up in my hive messing around touching my honey.  !NEVER! 

-No wrapping here either.

Again Thanks for all the responses.
aun Aprendo
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Finski
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« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2010, 12:59:19 PM »


finski,
-oy, The Sugar Argument.  The water cold dripping through the bees will probably disturb their 'sleep' more than me taking 5 minutes to toss in some sugar on a 50 F degree day (11 C).  



What altenative is that cold dripping or sugar Huh   You are not serious at all.

When the hive uses 10 kg winter food, it generates 4 litre water.
If "some sugar" makes you sleep better, do it.   Stupid trick however.

Magic and "some" sugar


'
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Finski
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« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2010, 01:03:32 PM »



-Tsk, tsk.  No advice has been 'stupid' here. 



Only 90%. Not more.
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kathyp
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« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2010, 02:02:44 PM »

i live in a high wind are and the wind is very cold in the winter.  if it's dry, it's in the 20's not counting wind chill.  if it's wet, it blows the rain into every crack.  a simple way to block the wind is to attach sheets of plywood at and / angle on the windward side.  not only does it block rain and wind, but if it's on the entrance side, it keeps the snow from the entrance.  cheap and easy.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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Hemlock
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« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2010, 04:43:34 PM »

Kathyp,

Do you run double deeps or what?
Does the plywood add to the risk of the wind toppling over the hives?

Fortunately we don't get the 'sideways rain' I've heard you talk about.  Spring is very windy though and snow load hear is practically nonexistent.  I do place a a piece of sheet metal on top of the hives.  It juts out half a foot on all sides.  Rarely (i can think of once) does rain make it onto the front porch.  The hives are on a tilt to drain off water making it in to the hives. 

I'm sure this event is condensation.  Up to now the temps have been in the 20's during the day.  so any interior water will have come from the bees.  Either I'm not venting properly or I don't know...Maybe I have extra-humid bees or something.  Anyway, I am confident that I'm not introducing the water into the hive right now.  Several have mentioned that small amounts of condensation can be good for the bees if conditions are right.  I'll focus on those conditions as well. 

Good will come out of this as soon as I catch up to whatever is going on.

Thanks
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kathyp
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« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2010, 05:24:00 PM »

some are double, some single.  depends on how they are doing going into winter.  late swarms i keep in singles.

i use sheets of plywood tipped at an angle from ground to hive front.  the angle keeps the wind from hitting the front of the hive full on and protects the entrance from snow buildup.  there is no getting around condensation.  the trick is to fix your hives so that it does not drip on the cluster.  condensation that runs down the sides and out, is natural.  the wetter the environment, the more you will get.  my external environment is very wet-high humidity.  moisture will not evaporate into wet air.  the best i can do is keep the moisture from the bees draining, and try to keep the rain out.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
manfre
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« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2010, 10:44:51 PM »

"What do the bees do with the news paper?"

It gets shredded and falls to the bottom and then makes you wonder what could be nesting in the bottom of the hive. Or at least that is my experience from this winter.
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Hemlock
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« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2010, 11:04:50 PM »

manfre,

I don't like the sound of that.

Is placing the sugar on the inner cover to far away from the cluster?

Never mind, I just read about it on this thread (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,26293.0.html)

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2010, 11:33:02 AM »

Bees produce water and CO2 by their metabolism.  When the weather is cold this is going to either condense or go out the top (wet air is lighter than dry air and warm air is lighter than cold air).  You are worried because it is running out.  Running out is what you want it to do.  It is going to condense on anything that is colder and there is bound to be places that are colder.  The important thing is to prevent it from condensing where it will drip on the bees.  Perhaps those of you in more moderate climates can leave the SBB open, I would not do it here.  We just recently had -27 F and 40-50 mph winds.  Would you leave the flap of your tent open if you were camping out in that weather?

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Hemlock
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« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2010, 08:13:01 PM »

Michael,

Actually I was worried because it was there, period.  I didn't get (until now) that it is suppose to be there.  I guess i'm over it now.  I'll do what I can to keep it off the bees and from being too much.
---   ---   ---

I insulated the Vent boxes today.  If I'm right this will keep condensation from occurring above the bees.  Now it should happen on the sides instead. 

Two vent holes are open allowing humidity to escape (facing south & east).  The SBB remains closed and the hive is still tilted.  The population is low and reserves are at half so I'll add dry sugar on top of the IC.



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podius
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« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2010, 08:53:11 AM »

I insulated with wool this year and just for curiosity checked a hive yesterday. I stuck my hand under the wool and it was hot and dry. There was some moisture on the edges, but wool wicks moisture out. I think it's a great insulator and a great option if you have a couple of neighbors that keep sheep and will give you the junk wool after a shearing.
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John VT
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Hemlock
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« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2010, 10:12:26 AM »

podius,

Sheep?  No.  But llama & alpaca, yes.  How thick did you make it?
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BMAC
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« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2010, 01:50:50 PM »

This is all very insteresting.  A local beek here in upstate NY took a fairly practical approach by cutting cardboard to the dimension of the top and replaced their inner cover with the cardboard inner cover.  He ade them sveral layers thick.  He states it absorbs the moisture and of course provides insulation to the bees.  He pulls them off in the spring and has done this for about 15 years now.  I suppose 1 years of work shows proof it is a useful tactic.  Myself.  I ran them to Ga and didnt sweat it.
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Finski
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« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2010, 02:13:45 PM »


cardboard is a good material. ...But the smell of moist cardboard is not nice at all.
Who knows what bees think about it.
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