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Author Topic: Vented Inner Cover  (Read 11331 times)
gaucho10
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« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2010, 01:42:21 AM »

Finski,

"In summer bees  need a huge ventilation if they get a good nectar flow.
If ventilation is not enough, part of bees stop working and  make a beard
on the outer wall of the hive."

This is the exact reason why two seasons ago I decided to go with a screen bottom board and a ventilated inner cover.

I started beekeeping back June of 1979.  The most number of hives I ever had was 9.   I kept bees in two locations.  4 of them were in the city on top of a garage roof and 5 of them were kept in the countryside.  They all handled differently due to their location but in all those years I never lost a colony.

One thing that I did follow religiously was to medicate ALL my bees, every season just like it said in "the book".  Back in 2000 I decided that I had enough with beekeeping and medication because I always thought that the chemicals somehow got into the honey and it was a lot of work as opposed to "fun".  I got rid of all my equipment and I decided to call it quits.

In 2008 I started reading about CCD.  Due to curiosity and the attraction to beekeeping I decided to start all over again, only this time I was going to use no chemicals whatsoever to see what would happen.  That is when I started reading on the internet about (IPM) Integrated Pest Management and the various beekeeping devices that beekeepers were using.  This REALLY got me interested in beekeeping and experimenting with equipment.  That is why I do what I do.

"So, during main yield season lower main entrance in widely open.
Others have the whole bottom open with mesh floor  - very strange to me, because main opening is enough."

True!  But that is the fun of this hobby/job.  What works for one person might not work for another.  All these people are using different techniques mainly to reduce bee mortality in one way or another.  The "Old Timer" beekeepers sometimes have a hard time breaking away from what they have been doing for so many years.  The new beekeepers, which is probably the majority in this forum, are trying to follow what they can learn to make this hobby successful.  I consider myself a "new" beekeeper because I am using "new" techniques that I recently discovered.  I agree with you about the size of the bottom openings.  BUT, I also like the idea of a SBB.  I keep the tray closed to maintain heat but I also have the ability to open it up "to prevent bearding" as an example.  I know that the SBB works for me.  Now I am trying to redesign the ventilated inner cover to my likings.
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My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
rdy-b
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« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2010, 02:34:57 AM »

finski-this pic is from a double walled hive from finland they tell me it is still used today- Smiley
is this everyday for finland or is it a idea someone had-and do you know what the keeper in the pic is doing -it looks like some kind of bee-brush to gather bees from frames -i have sean motorized bee brushes from Europe-Can you comment on these things- cheesy
RDY-B

     
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Finski
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« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2010, 05:44:05 AM »

finski-this pic is from a double walled hive from finland they tell me it is still used today- Smiley



It is common structure even now, if you want to do your self the boxes. The lifetime of that structure maybe 30-40 years.
It is thin plywood and some insultaion inside or even emty space.

If you bye that kind of box, the price is 3 fold compared to polyhive box.

In summer we can use sigle wall boxes as supers.

Quote
-it looks like some kind of bee-brush to gather bees from frames -i have sean motorized bee brushes from Europe-Can you comment on these things- cheesy


Nothing lol in this picture eccept the suit which never has used before. It is so clean.

Small scale beekeepers like me use shaking, brush and cleaning board. I have 40 years old "original" beebrush.

Some use twigs of heather.

Professionals use often leaf blower.

This picture is from hobby beekeeper but very normal sight in Finland.






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Finski
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« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2010, 06:00:51 AM »

Can you comment on these things- cheesy
RDY-B

    


However, that lol picture above is from a very famous  professional beekeeper who produce top quality honeys.

One explanation may be that if you produce "ecological" honey, you cannot use plastic hives.

"Lapland -Honey" It exports example honey to germany. Perhaps all must be clean to German markets.

http://www.polar-honey.com/

The most famous honey comes from Lapland. It is cloudberry honey from Arctic Polar area from bogs.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Cloudberry_flowers.JPG
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diggity
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« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2010, 03:26:02 PM »

Very cool - what did you treat the wood with?  It looks so nice and glossy.  I paint my boxes because it's the only thing I know, but I'd prefer an oil or clearcoat of something non-toxic.

Thanks!
-Diggity
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Gardening advocate and author of the book Garden Imperative (http://gardenimperative.blogspot.com)
gaucho10
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« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2010, 07:33:23 AM »

diggity,

On this particular box I just threw a quick "splash" of whatever I had left over in my mixing can which is probably boiled linseed oil.  It happened to be sitting on my bench since last season but I just wanted to use it up.

Besides painting, there are other ways to protect your bee equipment.  Mind you, this looks good now and it will eventually darken BUT will be PRESERVED!  The actual formula for a good coating, if you are going to use linseed oil is as follows:

1 st. coat---------50% BOILED LINSEED OIL and 50% TURPENTINE with a splash of PENATROL.
2 nd. coat--------2/3 BOILED LINSEED OIL and 1/3 TURPENTINE with a splash of PENATROL.
3 rd. coat---------100% BOILED LINSEED OIL with a splash of PENATROL.
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My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
Sparky
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« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2010, 08:13:25 PM »

Finski,

I started this thread for the interest of anyone on this forum who would be interested in following, including myself.  I personally like to experiment with things.  Unless this topic becomes objectionable to anyone, I plan to report on my findings regardless of the outcome. 

Please do !!!! Keep up the posting of any info that you put together no mater how small it may seem on this one. I like the idea of using the vented inner covers and trying different ways to see which ones have favorable outcomes. Now that we are gearing up for spring and putting equipment together it may have to be put on the to, do, list. LOL!!! Wink
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gaucho10
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« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2010, 08:54:56 PM »

Sparky,

I did not forget.  I am in the process of taking readings of different variations.  I am only working with 3 hives so I have to make sure I do the right tests.  I'll keep you posted.
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My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
gaucho10
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« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2010, 05:32:36 PM »

OK folks...Here are my results...I know that some of you might get boared with this stuff....

To start off let me give you an idea of my INITIAL setup...

Hive #1 original (VIC) ventilated inner cover with no insulation.
This hive has the bees on top of the frames near the center hole around frames #2, #3, #4, #5.  I could just see the cluster on top.  I also found a very small amount of cappings on the bottom tray.  They take some bottled honey, but not much.

Hive #2 new VIC with no insulation.
This hive is my weakest hive...the one that I can't see the bees because they are somewhere on frames #1, #2, #3, #4.  I know that they are alive because I find the cappings accumulating on my (SBB) screened bottom board tray.  They have not touched the bottle honey yet.

Hive #3 original VIC with the side vent holes covered with insulation.  Don't forget...this is may original VIC with the upper entrance/vent hole underneath, within the upper brood chamber.  These bees have been right on top center hole for some time.  I notice no cappings on SBB tray.  They take the most bottle honey.


                Hive #1-Insulated               Hive #2-No insulation                        Hive #3-No insulation

01/13/10    Outside Temp=25 Deg. F
                Brood Box Temp. = 37 Deg. F         Brood Box Temp. = 28 Deg. F                       Brood Box Temp. = 55 Deg. F
                VIC Temp. = 26 Deg. F                 VIC Temp. = 26 Deg. F                                VIC Temp. = 32 Deg. F

01/14/10    VIC Temp. = 45 Deg. F                 VIC Temp. = 45 Deg. F                                VIC Temp. = 50 Deg. F

After insulating on all three VIC's...

01/16/10    VIC Temp. = 48 Deg. F                  VIC Temp. = 50 Deg. F                               VIC Temp. = 49 Deg. F

01/17/10    Outside Temp. = 39 Deg. F
                VIC Temp. = 40 Deg. F                  VIC Temp. = 47 Deg. F                                VIC Temp. = 40 Deg. F

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My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
rdy-b
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« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2010, 06:31:00 PM »

the #s anrt coresponding with the description -are they transposed Smiley RDY-B
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gaucho10
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« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2010, 07:23:39 PM »

rdy-b,


I had to take a look at all this again to make sure it matched.  It is confusing BUT it is correct.

Let me explain it this way...


            Hive # 1                                       Hive #2                                    Hive #3

       Old VIC design                               New VIC design                         Old VIC design
        No insulation                                  No insulation                              Insulated
   Bees near center hole                         Bees not visible                 Bees blocking center hole
Some btl. honey consumption          no btl. honey consumption             Strictly on btl. honey
  Some cappings observed              Lots of cappings observed             No cappings observed
       VIC = 26 Deg. F                            VIC = 26 Deg. F                          VIC = 32 Deg. F
       VIC = 45 Deg. F                            VIC = 45 Deg. F                          VIC = 50 Deg. F

All VIC's insulated...

       VIC = 48 Deg. F                            VIC = 50 Deg. F                          VIC = 49 Deg. F
       VIC = 40 Deg. F                            VIC = 47 Deg. F                          VIC = 40 Deg. F

What I read from this is the following:

Hive #1 and #2 initially were not insulated and they lost a lot of heat through the VIC.  Hive #3 had an insulated VIC BUT no air flow because the upper entrance was in the brood box.  These bees still gave off more heat into the VIC because they are located right at the hole. That's why they still showed a higher temp.

AFTER insulating all 3 ventilated inner covers the results changed.  Now hive #2 (new VIC with entrance/vent hole within) had a higher temperature because the heat was flowing UP through the VIC and out the 3/8" x 2" hole.  Hive #1 and #2 had no air circulation because the VIC does not have an entrance/vent hole.  So....now you can say that the NEW VIC is warmer therefore it is loosing more warm air.  Not so...The original holes in my OLD VIC's and in all inner covers have the same size hole (~3/8" x 2").

So my conclusion is that if ANY 3/8" x 2" hole is going to loose the same amount of warm air, I rather have it go out "MY" design of a vented inner cover for several reasons.

First, the VIC acts as a warmer "ceiling".  a normal 3/4" inner cover would not be as warm.  Second, I have the option to TOP feed if I like.  You can't do that with a normal inner cover unless you install an additional box above.  Now you have created the same thing as my original VIC (no ventilation, no warm "ceiling", possibility of moisture/fungus growing in box.  Thirdly, if I wish I can include some type of absorbent INSIDE my VIC which I can remove occasionally after it absorbs moisture coming out of brood box.
And finally, which is my most important point, I can use this same VIC during the summer to create a good ventilation for my bees during HOT weather.


BTW...I have just built another VIC that includes a view window so that I can monitor the VIC temp W/O opening the top.  Just another feature...I am getting really bored I guess..... grin

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My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
Finski
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« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2010, 11:37:41 PM »

.
Sorry gaucho , but you cannot do science with 3 hives.

I wonder what advantage the noninsulated upper cover can give to bees?
You really are a wheel inventor.
I met 45 years ago a beekeeper who said that bees need only sackcloth as inner cover for winter.
Yes, this has been known for long time but it does not work so. We have among beekeepers all kind of life style indians.

Yes, in Alaska they do not use insulated boxes and then it is better to kill colonies at autumn and bye new ones in Spring.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 12:08:24 AM by Finski » Logged

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gaucho10
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« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2010, 03:49:16 AM »

Finski,

"Sorry gaucho , but you cannot do science with 3 hives."

I did!!!  I am still doing it!!!   How many keys did Benjamin Franklin use to prove his point (think electricity).  How many hives did Mr. Langstroth build to prove his point?  Did Christopher Columbus have to sail the oceans many times to prove that he is going to hit land by going west? Etc., etc., etc.


"I wonder what advantage the noninsulated upper cover can give to bees?"

Why are you wondering?  Can't you see that I got better results by having insulation in the ventilated inner covers?  I don't use insulation in the summer.  My experiment was to take readings between insulated and uninsulated VIC's to compare air flow into and out of new design VIC.  If you don't like ventilated inner covers then "don't buy one and don't build one".

 
"You really are a wheel inventor."

Finski, the wheel had already been invented...several thousand years ago from what I've read.


"I met 45 years ago a beekeeper who said that bees need only sackcloth as inner cover for winter.
Yes, this has been known for long time but it does not work so. We have among beekeepers all kind of life style indians."


I don't understand your point here. rolleyes


"Yes, in Alaska they do not use insulated boxes and then it is better to kill colonies at autumn and bye new ones in Spring."

OK........I believe you...I am going to guess that beekeepers in Alaska also do not use ventilated inner covers.  What's your point?

Finski,  correct me if I am wrong but I feel a little aggression coming from your responces.  I am not arguing with you or anybody else for that matter.  As a matter of fact I actually agreed to some of your previous statements.  I just started this post for people who might be interested in reading about my "trials and tribulations" regarding a project I am working on.
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My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
annette
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« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2010, 10:31:48 AM »

SBB and Ventilated Inner Covers for my bees.  It is working here!!
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Sparky
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« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2010, 07:39:45 PM »

Keep up the good work Rich. SBB and VIC here and so far so good. I took two hives and put SBB's that are only closed up in the middle and to the front end facing the entrance, under the slat racks and have notches in the other sides to let ventilate. Only one of the hives has any insulation to speak of in the new, made VIC with screen bottom and a piece of absorbant blanket on top of three, frame wedge strips to keep the girls from chewing on it. The insulation is only 1/2" thick with foil side down and notches cut along sides and near front side of hive. The other VIC of same design, has just frame wedge strips with absorbant blanket. The blanket material is just to divert any moisture to the outer edges because it is the same that I use under the metal hive stand beneath the stone to catch any oil from the moat around the post. It is a oil only absorbant. It will be of great interest to me in the spring to compare notes to see what the results are. Thanks Rich for your contributions !!!
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 07:23:32 PM by Sparky » Logged
gaucho10
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« Reply #75 on: January 18, 2010, 08:34:48 PM »

Sparky, keep us posted on the absorbent material.  So far I had no need to use any type of absorbent material because I never had problems with my hives sweating.  Since I am trying a new type of VIC that wicks moisture up through the top I might eventually consider an absorbent.

I was actually thinking of building some very simple cages to fit into my new VIC's that would hold absorbent material.  The cage could be built out of 1/2" x 1/2" galv. wire to hold hay, paper, etc.  It could also be 1/8" galv. mesh to hold other material such as wood shavings, cat litter (if that is acceptable), etc.  The cage could be removed on a routine basis and replaced with new material.  The absorbent cage perhaps could be installed in lew of the side insulation foam.  The cage absorbent could act as a insulation.  Just an idea.

To get back to my VIC discussion...I have attached some pics of what I would call my New KingVIC model! evil

***Basically it is the original ventilated inner cover with the following changes:  1-Front entrance/vent hole raised above VIC floor, 2-No front screened vent holes, 3-Rear vent holes replaced by a glass viewing area to keep track of interior temperatures and food quantity, 4-Fully insulated walls and top for northern winters with 1" foam insulation including aluminum backing, 5-Screened vent holes located only on both long sides, 6-Interior mounted thermometer.


Interior of the VIC showing the interior insulation, the rear glass view window and the wire coil which holds my 1/2 gal. Mason jar.


This pic shows the insulated top cover and the exterior view window with insulation in place.


Front view with top insulation and food jar in place.  Telescopic cover fits on top.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 09:08:14 PM by gaucho10 » Logged

My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
rdy-b
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« Reply #76 on: January 18, 2010, 09:07:06 PM »

YEEP that Be the king  cheesy to review why is the entrance above the floor-other than that are you going to make the observation glass slide looks big enough so your hand would fit in -RDY-B
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gaucho10
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« Reply #77 on: January 18, 2010, 09:27:28 PM »

rdy-b,

"why is the entrance above the floor"

My theory, after my experiment this week, shows that by having the top entrance/vent hole (3/8" x 2") above the floor the moisture leaves the brood chamber through the VIC as opposed to through the brood chamber.  You may say "well, what's the difference" and the difference is that by leaving through the VIC it warms up the VIC creating an upper chamber of insulation.  Don't forget that this is my reasoning for winter use.  The VIC is great for summer ventilation as well.

 
"other than that are you going to make the observation glass slide looks big enough so your hand would fit in"

No, the view window is glass that has been ciliconed into the wood frame from the inside.  It is flush on the inside and has a foam insulation placed on the outside.  The foam insulation actually is inserted into a wood block for weathering prevention-I just did not include it in the pic.  Previously, when I had no insulation on my screened vents I could actually see the status of my Mason jars through the sides.  Now that it is insulated I just decided to include a view window so I don't have to remove the top covers.  This might be well over the heads of a lot of people but if you have the time as I do I guess you can create just about anything.  If the theory flies, I guess someone can mass-produce these for a profit.
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My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
Sparky
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« Reply #78 on: January 19, 2010, 06:36:59 PM »

The New KingVIC model looks good Rich. I can see where it may definitely create a bit of a dead air space with just minimal air moving out the entrance to help keep a air exchange, to minimize moisture buildup. I think another benefit is that the heat around your feeder jar will keep the liquid warmer to encourage the bees to take it.
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gaucho10
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« Reply #79 on: January 19, 2010, 07:15:52 PM »

Good point Sparky.
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My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
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