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Author Topic: Disappearing Polar Bears  (Read 4259 times)
BeeHopper
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« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2009, 05:30:10 PM »

mark, the point of my contribution is that the reason we have polar bears is because the climate changed and stranded a population of grizzlies that evolved into polar bears.  so, because this other "climate change" occured before we were around to stop it it's "natural"...but because the current climate does indeed change and we can observe it, it is "bad".

what really ticks me off is when people arguing for doing "something" about climate change take the stance that, "well, even if we aren't causing global warming, wouldn't it be better to adopt all these green measures to stop polluting the environment."

i'm all for reducing pollution of all kinds...but lets do this on it's own merrits, not as a bait and switch!

deknow

I agree with reducing " Pollution " and we as a nation have been doing so for many years. On one hand our current administration is pushing to lower CO2 emissions that trees can handle, on the other hand we are still poisoning the environment with pesticides and the like, not good.
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deknow
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« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2009, 06:47:26 PM »

agreed.  regulating co2 is essentially regulating breathing.

i know someone that is doing an organic farm project.  it's going to require $20,000 for a septic system...composting is not an option.  in his words:  "$20,000 to poop!"

deknow
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sqkcrk
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« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2009, 10:20:57 AM »

mark, the point of my contribution is that the reason we have polar bears is because the climate changed and stranded a population of grizzlies that evolved into polar bears.  so, because this other "climate change" occured before we were around to stop it it's "natural"...but because the current climate does indeed change and we can observe it, it is "bad".

what really ticks me off is when people arguing for doing "something" about climate change take the stance that, "well, even if we aren't causing global warming, wouldn't it be better to adopt all these green measures to stop polluting the environment."

i'm all for reducing pollution of all kinds...but lets do this on it's own merrits, not as a bait and switch!

deknow

Well, I can understand and agree w/ most of what you have written. I'm all for reducing pollution too. Though I'm not so sure that we will.

As to grizzlies that became polar bears, this was addressed in the program that I listened to. The presenter stated that that would be a regression which he claimed doesn't happen.

Someone asked earlier whether I was "trolling" or not. If by trolling the person asking meant seeking opinions to critisize or to argue w/, no that's not what I was doing. I was looking for perspectives which may be similar or different from mine, so I may broaden my perspectives w/ alternate points of view.

Yeah deknow, I have a problem w/ those who say that one thing is "natural" because of lack of human unfluences and "unnatural" because we may have sped up the processes that have caused the out come.

Are we part of nature, and therefore what happens is natural? Or are we outside of nature and what we do is only harmful and will be the cause of our own extinction? I don't know for sure. Perhaps we (humans) are just doing what we are supposed to, being humans. Just like any other animal on earth is doing what is is supposed to do, what it tends to do. In other words, it is natural for humans to do what they do just as much as it is natural for whatever animal, plant, geological formation or weather phonomenon to do what it does.
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kathyp
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« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2009, 10:34:56 AM »

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Are we part of nature, and therefore what happens is natural? Or are we outside of nature and what we do is only harmful and will be the cause of our own extinction?


both, i think.  BTW, don't mind the trolling thing.  we have had our share.....sometimes we get twitchy.  smiley

we are self aware and we have the ability to reason.  both set us apart from other animals.  these things require us to examine and question our actions.  that's not a bad thing.  because we can reason, we can extrapolate and hopefully avoid disasters.  that's not a bad thing.

because we are self aware, we know that we can kill and die.  the polar bear does not think about the killing of a seal.  he just does it.  he does not think about the fact that a hunter may shoot him.  he may feel the pain of the shot, but will not examine the circumstances as he dies.  only man does these things.

we have a responsibility to use our talents.  we need to not pollute our drinking water, or kill all our game and starve.  we also have a responsibility to not go over the deep end and destroy life as we know it with silly emotional responses to perceived "disasters". 

the third thing that sets us apart from animals is the soul.  if you believe in god or ID, then you believe that what we are and what we have was created.  if you believe that, you must believe that our earth was created to keep a certain balance.  for all we know, that means it tips over every few thousand years and we start over smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2009, 11:18:40 AM »

Save the Pizzlies.



isn't it exciting to see a new species emerge?

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BeeHopper
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« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2009, 01:21:52 PM »




Two Ships Bears passing in the Night, you can image the rest of the story  Kiss
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2009, 05:17:21 PM »

well, I guess nobody cares about the wooly mammoth then.
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kathyp
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« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2009, 06:32:37 PM »

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I guess nobody cares about the wooly mammoth then.

i do.  they are part of the history of the earth  grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
wayne
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« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2010, 06:47:38 PM »

  A new paper published in the last week or so shows that CO2 as a percentage of the atmosphere hasn't changed in 160 years. Based on the air in trapped ice cores and such the last century and a half of man has had no effect on the amount of CO2 at all.
  Man was blaimed for the death of the mammoth and other mega fauna, but no one has explained just how a few stone age hunters managed to do that when later, and much bigger populations, were swimming in Bison and Deer. One would think that such super hunters would have eaten everything bigger than a field mouse.
  Pollution is one thing, but the idea than man is so powerful as to change the very temperature of the planet is pure ego at its best.
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2010, 09:36:22 PM »

 Undecided wow, I guess Rush Limbaugh was right about making fun of kooks - the mammoth thing? - total ridicule - someone seriously said people are responsible for disappearing them? I guess the next one will be that we inadvertently sent antimatter back in time  by belching Mcwhopper gas into a vortex and causing an explosion like a meteor strike; Killing all of the dinosaurs.
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« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2010, 11:06:02 AM »

    Man was blaimed for the death of the mammoth and other mega fauna, but no one has explained just how a few stone age hunters managed to do that

  Pollution is one thing, but the idea than man is so powerful as to change the very temperature of the planet is pure ego at its best.

There is a theory that the decline of mega fauna may have occured because of new diseases introduced by migrating humans and the animals that they brought w/ them.

I don't see why it is "pure ego" to think that if enough of us produced enough pollution that the results of doing so would be a change in the environment. To think that we don't have any impact is something other than ego. You figure out what it is.

Do you, not you personally wayne, but you meaning everyone, throw your soda bottles or cans out the window as you drive down the road? Why not? What do you think that the impact of all of us throwing our trash out the car window would be?

I often wish that I could catch the cigarette butts that I see being thrown out of car windows and throw it back into the car from which it came. Trash your own environment and leave the rest cleaner.
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kathyp
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« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2010, 11:55:02 AM »

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Why not? What do you think that the impact of all of us throwing our trash out the car window would be?


the impact is visual.  other than that, probably not much impact.  in fact, rubbish provides food and shelter for creatures.  it could be a bit like sinking a ship off a reef!  of course, none of us want to look at it, or smell it.  there is that potential for disease thing, but since bacteria are life forms, a breeding ground for them should not be an issue.

cigarettes out the window are a fire hazard.  we don't want our homes burned up, but fire is a good thing.  it clears the brush, allows for new growth, sterilizes the soil........

now that i have yanked your chain  evil  you are asking the wrong questions..........
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2010, 01:03:30 PM »

Trolling or not, I think the subject line you started out pretty much outlined your view, and you didn't back it up with anything.   I still don't see anything informing us why you think that the polar bears are disappearing.  I guess that is why I call it trolling.  Like fishing...throwing something out in the water that looks real but isn't to get a reaction.

I don't know about you, while I don't litter cigarette butts, I'm never going to go around breathing into a big baggie to capture all of the CO2 I produce.  rolleyes  I doubt you will either.  I have however on occasion hooked up an active yeast bottle to channel CO2 it produced to make my aquarium plants grow faster.  Darned pollution - I still had to heat my aquarium!

Personally I think it is pure propaganda that the cute fuzzy cuddly polar bears are held up as the poster child for global warming.

Anybody with any observation skills knows that the population of any species with fluctuate based on a myriad of reasons, and each of those reasons is subject to myriad more fluctuations.  Sure, PB's are somewhat isolated from human interference, but they were almost hunted to extinction.

After years of rebounding population it is absolutely reasonable to see declines and increases (supposedly some populations are increasing, some declining).  After years of warming and melting, we are definately seeing cooling and increasing freezing.  While sea ice availability affects the bears, I'm sure, there are lots of other things that affect those cute fuzzy little man-eaters.

If you want to talk about global warming and/or climate change, go ahead.  I don't believe that the polar bears need any inclusion in the debate, not at this point. Sure, what if, if this then, then they'll disappear.  But a slight decline (in some populations, does it even out with increases in others)?  Whatever.  Honeybees and monarchs and tri-footed thingyglobbers and lots of other species have had far worse declines and it has had nothing to do with climate change or global warming.  And bring up canabilization...gasp...bears do that?  And polar bears swimming for miles?  Poor things...that is so unusual for them!

We were down to what? 500 polar bears?  And we have more than 25,000 of them now?  And look for the studies.  All the studies I found were all based on information that was 3-20 years old and the projections based on computer models (we all know those are always spot on!!).  And the observations have some declining but some increasing! Sounds like a lot of people making big decisions on bad data. I was looking at http://pbsg.npolar.no/en/status/status-table.html referenced from NOAA so I assume it is somewhat correct.

They need a lot more data and information to convince any inquiring minds that polar bears are DISAPPEARING.  Maybe I'm going to try to lose weight.  Its not called a diet anymore, I'm just going to disappear.
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Rick
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« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2010, 01:08:21 PM »

Ha ha...I get it now!

o  o
  o

Polar bear in a snowstorm!!  They disappear in a snow storm!  And that's all we've been having!!
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Rick
ayyon2157
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« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2010, 11:23:40 PM »

Hello everybody:  I am not trying to get anyone upset, and am dead serious about what I believe could have been an extinction on  our farm in 1924.  If so, I have no idea of the causes.

     Our area had been  a swamp until about 1900 when it was drained.  It had been a lake bottom for a longtime after the ice age, then the Archaic Indians saw fit to dig big holes for water.  Later it became a swamp again.

     If you had asked one of the old time woodsmen what kind of poisinous snakes there were, they would have listed water mocassins, Eastern timber rattlers, and horn snakes.

     In 1924, most farmers believed in horn snakes, and carnival side shows found it to be worthwhile to take a live blacksnake, cut a slit in it's forehead and inserting a filed down silver dime which had a chicken spur attached and advertizing a "real live hornsnake".

     Long story short, Dad claimed until his dying day to have killed one that year, enduring a lot of ridicule in the process.  If I were to design a snake to live from eating ground squirrels extracted from tight fitting burrows,or birds from holes in trees I could have done no better than the snake Dad described.

     Personally I believe they existed, but wonder why they became extinct.  Perhaps their poison was insufficient to kill or sicken a large animal such as a cow or horse and they simply got trampled to death.  Perhaps they had some sort of symbiotic relationship to something which disappeared when the swamp was drained in Adams County Indiana. Dad claimed that "his" came toward him instead of going the other direction as other snakes would.

     I have always wondered.

ayyon 2157
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kathyp
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« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2010, 12:10:40 AM »

http://wisp.focusphere.net/wisp/04/the-last-horn-snake

could it have been a mutation or a deformed snake?  snakes are born with two heads, frogs with six legs.  maybe your dad's snake was born with an extra growth in it's head, or it had been damaged?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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