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Author Topic: Obama's birth certificate  (Read 5142 times)
Irwin
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« on: December 31, 2009, 05:36:16 AM »


 This is now getting VERY interesting!  Cough up the REAL birth certificate, Barry!  Again - if there's nothing wrong, nothing to hide - why is he taking the time, money, etc. to hide all of this?
 -----
 
 Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 1:24 PM
 
 VERY QUIETLY OBAMA'S CITIZENSHIP CASE REACHES THE SUPREME COURT
 
 AP- WASHINGTON D.C. - In a move certain to fuel the debate over Obama's qualifications for the presidency, the group "Americans for Freedom of Information" has Released copies of President Obama's college transcripts from Occidental College . Released today, the transcript school indicates
 that Obama, under the name Barry Soetoro, received financial aid as a foreign student from Indonesia as an undergraduate at the The transcript was released by Occidental College in compliance with a court order in a suit brought by the group in the Superior Court of California.  The transcript shows that Obama (Soetoro) applied for financial aid and was awarded a fellowship for foreign students from the Fulbright Foundation Scholarship program. To qualify, for the scholarship, a student must claim foreign citizenship. This document would seem to provide the smoking gun that many of Obama's detractors have been seeking.
 Along with the evidence that he was first born in Kenya and there is no record of him ever applying for US citizenship, this is looking pretty grim. The news has created a firestorm at the White House as the release casts increasing doubt about Obama's legitimacy and qualification to serve as President. When reached for comment in London , where he has been in meetings with British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, Obama smiled but refused comment on the issue.  Britain 's Daily Mail has also carried the
story in a front-page article titled, "Obama Eligibility Questioned," leading some to speculate that the story may overshadow economic issues on Obama's first official visit to the  U.K. In a related matter, under growing pressure from several groups,
 
  Justice Antonin Scalia announced that the Supreme Court agreed on Tuesday to hear arguments concerning Obama's legal eligibility to serve as President in a case brought by Leo Donofrio of New Jersey . This lawsuit claims Obama's dual citizenship disqualified him from serving as president.  Donofrio's case is just one of 18 suits brought by citizens demanding proof of Obama's citizenship or qualification to serve as president.
 
  Gary Kreep of the United States Justice Foundation has released the results of their investigation of Obama's campaign spending. This study estimates that Obama has spent upwards of $950,000 in campaign funds in the past year with eleven law firms in 12 states for legal resources to block disclosure of any of his personal records. Mr. Kreep indicated that the investigation is still ongoing but that the final report will be provided to the U.S. attorney general, Eric Holder. Mr. Holder has refused to comment on the matter.
 
  LET OTHER FOLKS KNOW THIS NEWS, THE MEDIA WON'T !
 

Subject: RE: Issue of Passport?
  While I've little interest in getting in the middle of the Obama birth issue, Paul Hollrah over at FSM did so yesterday and believes the issue can be resolved by Obama answering one simple question:  What passport did he use when he was shuttling between New York, Jakarta, and Karachi ?
 
  So how did a young man who arrived in New York in early June 1981, without the price of a hotel room in his pocket, suddenly come up with the price of a round-the-world trip just a month later?
 
  And once he was on a plane, shuttling between New York, Jakarta, and Karachi, what passport was he offering when he passed through Customs and Immigration?
 
  The American people not only deserve to have answers to these questions, they must have answers.  It makes the debate over Obama's citizenship a rather short and simple one.
 
  Q: Did he travel to Pakistan in 1981, at age 20?
  A : Yes, by his own admission.
 
  Q: What passport did he travel under?
  A: There are only three possibilities.
 
  1) He traveled with a U.S. Passport, 2) He traveled with a
  British passport, or 3) He traveled with an Indonesia passport.
 
  Q: Is it possible that Obama traveled with a U.S. Passport in 1981?
  A: No.. It is not possible. Pakistan was on the U.S. State Department's "no travel" list in 1981.
 
  Conclusion: When Obama went to Pakistan in 1981 he was traveling either with a British passport or an Indonesian passport.
 
  If he were traveling with a British passport that would provide proof that he was born in Kenya on August 4, 1961, not in Hawaii as he claims.  And if he were traveling with an Indonesian passport that would tend to prove that he relinquished whatever previous citizenship he held, British or American, prior to being adopted by his Indonesian step-father in 1967.
 
  Whatever the truth of the matter, the American people need to know how he managed to become a "natural born" American citizen between 1981 and 2008..
 
  Given the destructive nature of his plans for America, as illustrated by his speech before Congress and the disastrous spending plan he has presented to Congress, the sooner we learn the truth of all this, the better.
 
  If you Don't care that Your President is not a natural born Citizen and in Violation of the Constitution, then Delete this and go into your cocoon.
 
  If you do care then Forward this!
 



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« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2009, 08:48:08 AM »

irwin, this is a fake story.
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/was-obama-born-in-the-usa/

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Irwin
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« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2009, 09:58:58 AM »

OK
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« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2009, 10:00:11 AM »

i don't know if the story is fake.  the fact that that site says it is, might make me believe that it's true.

more research needed, but from a reliable source! 
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« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2009, 10:03:21 AM »

with all due respect kathy, it would have taken you less time to google the story and prove to yourself that it is fake than to make that post.

actually, it would have been better if irwin bothered to google it before posting it here.

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« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2009, 10:21:25 AM »

i did.  i'm quick  grin

i try  not to source or fact check from sites that have agendas.  sometimes it's the best you can do or you have to use those sites in conjunction with other info.  not knocking your assertion, but i would not use a site like that as sole reference to refute a story.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2009, 10:27:11 AM »

i did.  i'm quick  grin

i try  not to source or fact check from sites that have agendas.  sometimes it's the best you can do or you have to use those sites in conjunction with other info.  not knocking your assertion, but i would not use a site like that as sole reference to refute a story.

So which site(s) did you use and what did you find?
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« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2009, 10:28:42 AM »

i don't know if the story is fake.  the fact that that site says it is, might make me believe that it's true.

more research needed, but from a reliable source!  

Factcheck.org is a pretty reliable site - as far as that goes.  They really do cut both ways.  They've reported on plenty of mistruths both for and against Obama, as well as all our other favorite reality benders.  They usually (if not always) document their sources in a way that you can actually check them out.  

I get their email feed and it frequently includes things that I'd rather not hear about the people I want to like, but that's life isn't it.

Of course, they all have an agenda of some kind.
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« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2009, 10:37:44 AM »

Quote
So which site(s) did you use and what did you find

haven't  yet.  will when i have time.  last i heard, SCOTUS was not going to hear this. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2009, 11:06:54 AM »

It also came out that the Acorn investigation showed no illegal activity. Yeah! I believe that like I believe in Arkansas oceanfront property. After reading the above story, and the rebuttal, I still don't believe or not believe it.
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« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2009, 11:14:12 AM »

It also came out that the Acorn investigation showed no illegal activity. Yeah! I believe that like I believe in Arkansas oceanfront property. After reading the above story, and the rebuttal, I still don't believe or not believe it.

I don't know all that much about ACORN other than the same scam that everyone hears, but if you look close enough at any group that involves people and money - from lacosanostra down to the Harper Valley PTA you usually find a few bad apples with their fingers in the pie.
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« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2009, 12:07:44 PM »

i try  not to source or fact check from sites that have agendas.

...wondering if you can name a site without an agenda?

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« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2009, 12:20:39 PM »

last i heard, SCOTUS was not going to hear this. 

...was not going to hear what?  a made up AP story?

although i'm interested in the subject (which is why i read the thread in the first place), anyone with a critical mind will have learned by now that:

1.  not everything they read on the internet is true, even things that "sound right", or fit with one's own agenda.
2.  there has been an incredible "anti-obama" smear campaign going on since the campaign started (i'm not an obama fan, and there was/is a similar smear campaign on bush).  the birth certificate issue has been hashed around for a very long time.  anyone that is attached enough to their 'agenda' to read the first post in this thread and not be skeptical enough to look into it is so attached to their agenda that facts matter very little.

i'm still curious about the status of obama wrt birthplace.  sending around fake ap stories to "prove" a point furthers no agenda other than to mislead.  the idea that a fake news story and the supreme court considering a case should be at all related (even when they are both about the same subject) is....well, i don't know what it is, but it isn't logical, and it has nothing to do with the truth.

imho, if you want to make a case for the supreme court to hear a case (even to beekeepers reading a forum), citing the facts that should lead to such a case would be helpful.

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« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2009, 01:34:00 PM »



I haven't looked at this particular story at all, but in general I don't trust factcheck.org when it comes to BHO. There's a little conflict of interest with the Annenberg foundation and BHO.
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« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2009, 03:04:11 PM »



I haven't looked at this particular story at all, but in general I don't trust factcheck.org when it comes to BHO. There's a little conflict of interest with the Annenberg foundation and BHO.


What specifically are you referring to?  Seriously - inquiring minds and all that.
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« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2009, 05:29:13 PM »

...i looked into it (i wasn't aware of this before), but truthcheck referred to a "birth certificate" where it apparantly was a "certificate of live birth".  there is a difference between these two documents (which might be relevant in this case), but generally, i don't believe there is any functional difference between the two.
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« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2009, 06:15:31 PM »

The problem I have with this subject and other subjects that fall into a serious category is why wait so long to bring it up. Those that was/is against anyone being quality or present should come forth with any thing like this before the 11.00 o'clock our. Should they have tried to find out something about the man when  he was a senator?  Some cannot live with any change what so ever and there fore curse any that comes. As for what he has done in his first year in office, good or bad, (who) could could done much better with the dish he was handed.

Happy new year every one.
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« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2009, 06:25:25 PM »

there is a difference between these two documents (which might be relevant in this case), but generally, i don't believe there is any functional difference between the two.
BIG difference between the two - particularly from Hawaii. Hawaii has issued COLB to out of state and out of country born children on a seemingly regular basis.

The problem I have with this subject and other subjects that fall into a serious category is why wait so long to bring it up. Those that was/is against anyone being quality or present should come forth with any thing like this before the 11.00 o'clock our. Should they have tried to find out something about the man when  he was a senator?  

 :)doak
That is of course the other part of the issue. The position of Senator does not require one to be a "Natural Born" citizen like the office of President does, but whomever was responsible for checking these requirements apparently decided it was OK, or didn't matter, or just didn't do it. Neither of which is correct unless our constitution really is only for show anymore and not a legally binding limit on government - in which case we are all, already, only slaves.
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« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2009, 06:30:33 PM »

there is a difference.  i will look for the article that explains it, but as i recall, the certificate of live birth can be issued to hawaii residents for the purposes of benefits, etc.  it can be issued even to those who were not born there.  it just means that the person exists.  it was brought up before he ran.  in fact, it was the clinton campaign that brought it up.  it was not an issue as senator because you do not need to be a natural born citizen of the US to be senator.

it would be easy to make the issue go away.  produce the BC.


Quote
As for what he has done in his first year in office, good or bad, (who) could could done much better with the dish he was handed.

that's a crap argument on so many levels i wouldn't even begin to know where to start.  a housewife out of kansas would have had a better grasp of economics, the world, and the constitution than than obama has.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2010, 09:40:41 AM »

Oh, but Kathy, he's a constitutional scholar, don'tcha know.  The fact that he seems to have spent more of his time 'chafing under the constraints' of the Constitution shouldn't cloud your view of him  rolleyes

As for the garbage of 'the dish he was handed' puleeze, if you were handed a dish of spoiled beef stew would you continue to not only hand it out, but make more of it, and make it even more rotten?  

And I believe his inability to produce his real birth certificate speaks volumes.  That's all it would take.  John McCain did it, why can't Barry?
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« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2010, 10:22:36 AM »

with all due respect kathy, it would have taken you less time to google the story and prove to yourself that it is fake than to make that post.

actually, it would have been better if irwin bothered to google it before posting it here.

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« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2010, 11:32:42 AM »

Well I did my job got people talking about something Wink
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« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2010, 03:07:14 AM »

Its like this: Hes had 12 months to rock the world, hes done nothing. I suspect he is a Marxist plant, no doubt a closeted Muslim whos destiny was made when MLK copped it.

Just a big bag of wind IMO, prolly an uncle Tom too. In 12 more months, he will shut up shop altogether and concerntrate on being re elected. I gather he will run on "I bought em home" but I pity the tens of thousands left on the front line.

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« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2010, 07:31:41 AM »

What does 'probably an Uncle Tom' have to do with it?  That's a stupid slur for a black person, because they 'act white'  rolleyes  Acting like someone who wants something in life makes them an Uncle Tom, or an Oreo, or whatever.   rolleyes  rolleyes
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« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2010, 08:22:21 AM »

Sorry. He doesn't even meet the qualifications of an "Uncle Tom" as that is a concept based upon the African American "risen from Slavery" culture. This is NOT the culture Barry was from, or raised in either. If anything he is from the culture of the African tribes that captured and SOLD those that became US slaves into bondage to begin with.
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« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2010, 10:17:25 AM »

besides, it's only conservative blacks that are called uncle tom.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2010, 11:17:26 PM »

Just a few comments -

A certificate of live birth was issued for my born-in-Japan child (by the US Embassy), and used as the basis (along with my US citizenship) to give my child US citizenship.  To obtain it, I presented the birth certificate from the hospital in Japan.  So for Hawaii to be issuing them for people not born in Hawaii makes sense to me.

The US recognises dual citizenship - and holding multiple passports.  My children enter and depart the US on their US passports, but when entering or departing from Japan - they present their Japan passports.  When entering any other country - they present the passport that they used on their trip departure.  So if this story had (or has) any truth within it - then it would not be surprising for a US citizen to use another passport.

I do not know if Obama is or isn't a dual citizen - but I don't believe that would be relevant to his qualification to office.
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« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2010, 11:25:44 PM »

I do not know if Obama is or isn't a dual citizen - but I don't believe that would be relevant to his qualification to office.
You would be Constitutionally incorrect in that belief.
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« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2010, 12:04:53 AM »

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but I don't believe that would be relevant to his qualification to office.

the constitution requires that the president be a natural born citizen.  he can hold any other office if he is born elsewhere, but not the job of president.  it wouldn't be so muddled a question if there where not reports of family making comment about being present at his birth in kenya.  there is also some question of his mothers legal residency, but those questions are even more complicated.

i probably would have chalked it all up to the usual games of politics when it came up, but now i wonder why he does not do the simple thing and produce a birth certificate.  it would be simple and would end speculation.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2010, 01:43:21 AM »

You would be Constitutionally incorrect in that belief.

You may of course be correct - but a US citizen does not automatically lose their US citizenship when accepting the citizenship of another country.  Say a country gives away citizenship to anyone who requests it, or who makes a significant investment, or who has an ancestral connection - does accepting and becoming a dual citizen trump the "natural born citizenship" requirement?  That is, does the constitution, or some other law prevent from office a person who is otherwise qualified, solely on the basis that they also hold a nationality/citizenship of another country?
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« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2010, 08:34:53 AM »

You would be Constitutionally incorrect in that belief.

You may of course be correct - but a US citizen does not automatically lose their US citizenship when accepting the citizenship of another country.  Say a country gives away citizenship to anyone who requests it, or who makes a significant investment, or who has an ancestral connection - does accepting and becoming a dual citizen trump the "natural born citizenship" requirement?  That is, does the constitution, or some other law prevent from office a person who is otherwise qualified, solely on the basis that they also hold a nationality/citizenship of another country?
That isn't the question.  Is Obama or is he not a natural born citizen.  Dual citizenship isn't the issue.
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« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2010, 10:02:55 AM »

if he was born in Kenya, as some of his relatives have apparently claimed, he would not be able to be president.

in any other election, the press would have torn into this story.  because it was "the one", they ignored it.  those who went after it were labeled racist.  it was not until later we found it came from the hillary camp!  smiley
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« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2010, 10:54:01 AM »

\
You may of course be correct - but a US citizen does not automatically lose their US citizenship when accepting the citizenship of another country.  Say a country gives away citizenship to anyone who requests it, or who makes a significant investment, or who has an ancestral connection - does accepting and becoming a dual citizen trump the "natural born citizenship" requirement?  That is, does the constitution, or some other law prevent from office a person who is otherwise qualified, solely on the basis that they also hold a nationality/citizenship of another country?
Of course there is still the issue with his Indonesian schooling - where they will NOT accept students with dual citizenship - yet he attended and has not applied for reinstatement of US Citizenship - which would have HAD to have been relinquished at that time.
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« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2010, 11:36:34 AM »

Perhaps it is time we send in a few Marines to help him pack and send him back to Indonesia, Kenya, or whatever other country that would take him.  Since he bends over backwards to Middle East terrorists, perhaps a nice trip to Afghanistan is in order.  I bet Iran would love to have him visit, too.  He could give away lots of our secrets and weaken our security then.
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« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2010, 04:11:36 PM »

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What does 'probably an Uncle Tom' have to do with it?  That's a stupid slur for a black person, because they 'act white'

Just to clarify:

The term "Uncle Tom" is primarily used by blacks as a racial remark to other blacks who "bow down to white people".   The term is in reference to the book by Harriet Beecher Stowe, Uncle Tom's Cabin where Uncle Tom was the obedient servant of his white master.  Because Stowe had never been to the south and witnessed slavery the book is complete fiction and primarily used as propaganda by the north to fuel the war effort against the south.  Very, very few people in the south were fighting for or had slaves but were rather fighting for states rights and a smaller federal government.  It is also not worthy to mention that this propaganda is directly responsible for many of the stereo types associated with African Americans today. 

So over a hundred thousand people died fighting for states rights while their enemy lost nearly twice that many fighting over a piece of fiction.

I think we can all agree slavery is wrong......what amazes me is the people who still believe the propaganda and and can't agree we need greater states rights and a smaller federal government.  Sound familiar?  The Federal government using racism and propaganda to squash states rights and gain more power and enslave all of us.
 

   
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« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2010, 09:00:16 PM »

That isn't the question.  Is Obama or is he not a natural born citizen.  Dual citizenship isn't the issue.

Yes – that is what I thought too, and is the point I was trying to make.  The article, and some members here point to incidents of his travels, supposed requirements of foreign schools, and even what some of his relatives are reported to have said – as if they are evidence of some sort, or bring into question his meeting of the requirement for the office.  None of these are relevant, to my understanding, and all are easily explained and quite common at that.

Traveling on a non-US passport has nothing at all to do with whether a person was natural born in the US (holding multiple passports is common).  Whether a country or school only admitted domestics has nothing to do with whether a person was natural born in the US (schools waive requirements, and in Indonesia – a few dollars goes a long way).  Having relatives say things about you has noting to do with whether a person was natural born in the US (they just might want to claim a closer relationship with our President).

Of course there is still the issue with his Indonesian schooling - where they will NOT accept students with dual citizenship - yet he attended and has not applied for reinstatement of US Citizenship - which would have HAD to have been relinquished at that time.

It is actually very hard for a US Citizen to give up their citizenship – and even if they have done so – they do not need to reapply for it – most particularly if they are natural born.  US courts have backed citizens who later said that they were simply lying at the time about their true intent to relinquish.  My understanding is that only expressing one’s true intent to a consular officer (if you later say that you had lied to the consular office – you retain it); serving in a foreign military against the US, or holding a high office of a foreign country will cause you to lose your US citizenship.  Hence - having attended a school that would not accept dual citizens (if indeed that was the case) seems moot to me.
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« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2010, 10:17:55 PM »

Quote
Having relatives say things about you has noting to do with whether a person was natural born in the US (they just might want to claim a closer relationship with our President).

all very true, but easily cleared up by producing a BC.  there are any number of jobs that i could not get without one.  i had to send for a certified copy a few years ago.  it cost a few dollars, but came quickly and was pretty easy to get.  there is no good reason not to produce one.  private info could be redacted.

addition

there is another problem with the certificate of live birth.  the registration number is redacted. i can not think of a good (legal)  reason for doing that.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2010, 10:38:38 PM »

... easily cleared up by producing a BC.  there are any number of jobs that i could not get without one.  ...  the registration number is redacted. i can not think of a good (legal)  reason for doing that. 

I agree that many government jobs cannot be had without a BC - and needed to produce a BC myself some years ago.  What I did not need to do is make it available to the public.  And BCs do not actually exist for many people, and in some cases just cannot be found.  It would be good to understand just exactly what the case is since this has gotten so much attention.

If I were releasing a BC or a Cert of Live Birth - I might redact the registration number - since it could be used to obtain additional information such as which office issued it, who's Certs preceded or followed, who worked that day, etc., etc.  There may also be on-line systems that use the Cert# as a key to further information.  Of course I am guessing here.
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« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2010, 11:10:45 PM »

I started following this post just recently - interesting, because of its occasional blurb in the news and with Obama's Campaign against FOX NEWS, chances of hearing anything elsewhere is slim to none.

My thoughts isn't where he was born, but his abilities to get things (anything) done - so far he is worse than any lame duck President I have ever seen.

The sickening thing about health care reform, it won't take place for 4 years after passed, meaning his re-election and an additional congressional run for the Dems will come and go before a dollar is spent on reform - what is to happen to that nearly $900 billion all those years, earn .10% interest in a money market?

If the Dems are soooo worried about health care for the poor, then do it now, not use it as a political toy to toss to the needy cats, which they claim 35 million people are without healthcare, well the proposed plan only effects 10 million, leaving 25 million at least as bad off as they are now. But then do the math, $900 billion into 10 million people - I'll let you move the zeros around and once you clean your underwear we'll finish THAT conversation.

He is a useless President so far, unable to take a Congress with majority vote in his corner and do magical "CHANGE" as he spouted at every whistle stop. I can't imagine the personality charisma he must have face to face, it has to be wizarous because he has surely buffaloed millions in his 2 year campaign, something he started only 140 or so days as a junior senator. He has little legislative experience and no executive experience, and you can use the Uncle Tom slur of you wish, I will not - but surely he is a token of the Entertainment Generation, just another Tiger Woods, somehow White PEople are easily impressed, if not spell-bound when they see a black man who speaks well and has a smile to match. That isn't anything agianst him, it is a gift - it is though a shot at anyone who bought the theory that a black man is anything better than a man of any color, especially in these hard times.

I don't think he is any kind of answer to International issues, most countries have snubbed him with high ranking officials refusing to even shake his hand, that is an insult I have never witnessed before, but check videos on Youtube showing many of his jaunts and see for yourself, he extends his hand and the governing parties pull theirs away in show that they disapprove - the most we videotaped, Russia's leadership.

Do I blame any of this on the Dems and Libs, no!!!! Let's look at what the Republicans have brought to the plate and then see who the caucuses tossed out long before most of us could vote. Yes, we need a national primary day, not weed out the players mainly because of funds and worse of all the airtime given in debates to the two nominees that the media think have the best chance to go on.

I end with a question that is bugging me, totally off topic - why DeKnow are you harping on KathyP? If you don't see it that way, I suggest you reread your posts, they sound a bit abusive to me, please remember the rules on personal attacks. Feel free to argue any issue, but keep your opinions about members to yourself, please.

So, 3 more years at least of a do nothing government, meanwhile I noticed the numbers of DOW, NASDAQ and S&P go up in 2009 from about 17% to 25% which sounds like a recovery starting to me. But how many more things will we bail out or offer rebates for to temporarily spring-board the economy? We have a long time before we even break even in our savings, if indeed we do. As it is the only reason China doesn't call their chit is because the leading buyer of their exports is the USA, if they bankrupted the United States, they would split their own throats.

Just some things to ponder.
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« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2010, 11:38:13 PM »

darn it.  did i get harped on a miss it??   evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2010, 11:41:47 PM »

You were probably too busy cleaning and loading your guns. cool
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« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2010, 01:33:43 AM »

You can go on youtube and see our PM eating his own EAR WAX IN BLOODY PARLIAMENT! the press pretty much ignored that. So whats a birth certificate between friends?

If i was to stand against our PM, I would do so on ear wax. Can you trust a man who eats his own ear wax? Id just replay the video over and over again and pretty soon, he becomes a weird sick twisted individual. Same thing can happen with this birth certificate bizzo.
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« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2010, 04:31:16 AM »

OK - I have looked for his birth certificate and have read the politifact.com writeup on their efforts to confirm his birth. 


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/

I also looked for Hawaii BCs, to see if I could find one on the internet that was different and used the words BC instead of Certificate of Live Birth, and found none.

It now seems to me that anyone who does not believe he is natural born on the basis of doubts surrounding the Certificate of Live Birth - will not be satisfied by any evidence that can be provided.  My understanding is that Hawaii uses the Certificate and no other form of document (BC, etc.) to document births.  So to ask that he produce a BC is nonsense - since he has done exactly that as a person born in Hawaii.  Anyone - please prove me wrong by finding a BC issued in or by the State of Hawaii that is not a Certificate.  In addition this Certificate (BC in my opinion) clearly gives the location of birth (City, Island, County) as being within Hawaii. 

For comparison, my younger son's Certificate - issued by the US Embassy, and not a BC - clearly states his location of birth as being a town in Japan.  Had we asked Hawaii for a Certificate, it would no doubt have listed the town in Japan, and not Hawaii.  (Again, just my opinion.)
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« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2010, 10:07:47 AM »

So, 3 more years at least of a do nothing government, meanwhile I noticed the numbers of DOW, NASDAQ and S&P go up in 2009 from about 17% to 25% which sounds like a recovery starting to me. But how many more things will we bail out or offer rebates for to temporarily spring-board the economy? We have a long time before we even break even in our savings, if indeed we do. As it is the only reason China doesn't call their chit is because the leading buyer of their exports is the USA, if they bankrupted the United States, they would split their own throats.

Just some things to ponder.
Dems have always been good at building effective financial bubbles - everything looks rosy till the payments come due. This time around they've not even pretended that it's much else. Heck, even I could live well on a million dollar loan - that is until someone expected it to be paid back at loanshark rates. The stock market action is due to corporations attempting to pad the larder in preparation for the other shoe dropping. But corporations are not actually people - so any increased costs to them get passed onto the customers, and not suffered internally.
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« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2010, 10:17:11 AM »

there are two forms.  one is the short form issued for ID.  that's what obama put out.  the other is the long form which looks pretty much like anyones BC.  you are correct, it is called a certificate of life birth also, but it is much, much different.

there has been word that hawaii has informed all that they will no longer issue the long form on request.  they will only issue the short form.  i would love to know when that decision was made, but have not found info on it.

i do understand not being able to find a birth certificate.  it's hard to keep track of stuff when you don't need it every day.  however, when the question was first raised, and there was enough to make people wonder, it should have been laid to rest.  it is a requirement for the job.  "i can't find it" wouldn't work for any other job.
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« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2010, 11:32:03 PM »

there are two forms.  one is the short form issued for ID.  that's what obama put out.  the other is the long form which looks pretty much like anyones BC.  you are correct, it is called a certificate of life birth also, but it is much, much different.

there has been word that hawaii has informed all that they will no longer issue the long form on request.  they will only issue the short form.  i would love to know when that decision was made, but have not found info on it.

i do understand not being able to find a birth certificate.  it's hard to keep track of stuff when you don't need it every day.  however, when the question was first raised, and there was enough to make people wonder, it should have been laid to rest.  it is a requirement for the job.  "i can't find it" wouldn't work for any other job.

Back in the day when Social Security was 1st introduced a large number of people couldn't even produce documentation of birth through a then accepted form of record called the Family Bible.  Social Security had the policy, and still does I believe, that in lieu of a document of birth the written testimony of 3 relatives older than the person applying for benefits is required.  This is then accepted as proof of birth and citizenship.
So a Birth Certificate or Record of Live Birth isn't even necessary to confer citizenship.

It is through the Family Biblical records and testimonies of relatives that my grandparents and great-grandparents qualified for Social Security benefits when they turned 65.
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« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2010, 09:13:36 AM »

that in lieu of a document of birth the written testimony of 3 relatives older than the person applying for benefits is required.  This is then accepted as proof of birth and citizenship.
So a Birth Certificate or Record of Live Birth isn't even necessary to confer citizenship.

"Citizenship" in and of itself has never been the issue. It's the "Natural Born" status required for the office of POTUS that is in question, and at least one of his grandparents is on record as having been AT his birth in Kenya.
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