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Author Topic: what is wrong with the military and why America will never again win a major war  (Read 6788 times)
wayne
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« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2009, 07:59:16 PM »

 Did anyone hear the NPR piece on the Rules of Engagement?
 The reporter was listening to soldiers debate on whether to return fire on an enemy soldier.
  DEBATE ON RETURNING FIRE!!!!!!!!!
  They were shot at and had to discuss if it was worth the risk to return fire. The risk of going to jail if they hit a noncombatant.

  God help us.
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I was born about 100 years too early, or to late.
kathyp
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« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2009, 11:55:50 AM »

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=121330893

here is the link.

we have decided that, in the middle of 'war', our soldiers lives are less important than those we fight.  we learned nothing from vietnam.  there are no civilians in this kind of war.  there is only kill, or be killed. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2009, 12:49:28 PM »

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=121330893

here is the link.

we have decided that, in the middle of 'war', our soldiers lives are less important than those we fight.  we learned nothing from vietnam.  there are no civilians in this kind of war.  there is only kill, or be killed. 


Insane rules of engagement.
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"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams.

Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2009, 04:27:40 PM »

One of the problems we've had is that we haven't really fought a true all out war since WWII, they've all been "police actions."  A soldier at war has the duty to disable the enemy to the extent the enemy either expires or submits.  Asking a soldier to play police officer is insane, the 2 jobs are not the same and merging the 2 only creates confusion and low moral.  Requiring our soldiers to treat prisoners of war as if they had the same or greater rights than US citizens under our constitution is also absurd.  But that is the PC of the day.  But even if we accept our soldiers acting as police, under our system, there is still the rule of "such force is as necessary," and I can tell you that there are times when a police officer is required to assualt a handcuffed detainee.  For instance, martial arts experts can kill, even with their hands cuffed behind their backs, and that requires a level of force that might seem repugnant at first light.

A Prisoner of war is not a criminal, he is an enemy combatant, just as our soldiers would be an enemy combantant to our enemy.  Warfare, according to the Geneva Accords, has a set of rules, and making a person a criminal due to participation in a war is not one of them.  True, somethings like the hallocost, can come out of war and are criminal in and of themselves, but that is an individual action of scope.  The treatment of POW's is outlined in the Geneva Accords governing warfare, and in reading the articles posted in this thread, nowhere do I see a violation of the rules of war by the SEALS, which would be required for the action being taken to be applied.  Hitting a POW, in order to control him, is not a violation, if the alleged hitting actually took place. 

I've served under officer's who were a little over the top with their command authority but in  the days of a larger, draftee, Armed Forces they were usually filtered out at the LTC or Col. level and didn't become General or Flag Officers, the experience was not pleasant and the entire unit had moral problems--top to bottom.  That is no longer true in todays all volunteer forces where sub-standard officers are retained because of lack of volunteers,  need I point out the debacle at Fort Hood to prove my point on that?.
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Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
mick
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« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2009, 02:32:45 AM »

I posted once of the most kills in the war on terror belonging to a teenage predator pilot out of Nevada.

I think I will live long enough for the US govt to deploy remote controlled attack helis and jets. Id expect them to be throwing billions at it. Add the constantly upgraded sat imaging and stuff and the grunt will be safer than he ever has been.

I see an army of robotic rats and mice, all scurrying around sensing for ammo, bombs, bodies. Beaming back live data in wide screen. Can you imagine one of these things scuttling under your door and staring at you as its computer decides if you are friend or foe, then BLAM an ounce of Octanitrocubane goes off and by bye house and people.

Thats war 21st century style IMO,
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2009, 04:27:44 AM »

I posted once of the most kills in the war on terror belonging to a teenage predator pilot out of Nevada.

I think I will live long enough for the US govt to deploy remote controlled attack helis and jets. Id expect them to be throwing billions at it. Add the constantly upgraded sat imaging and stuff and the grunt will be safer than he ever has been.

I see an army of robotic rats and mice, all scurrying around sensing for ammo, bombs, bodies. Beaming back live data in wide screen. Can you imagine one of these things scuttling under your door and staring at you as its computer decides if you are friend or foe, then BLAM an ounce of Octanitrocubane goes off and by bye house and people.

Thats war 21st century style IMO,

By then the sensors will be made in china and only effective 20% of the time - oops.
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kathyp
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« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2009, 10:34:12 AM »

mick, i don't have a problem with that as long as it works.  the complaint against it is that it makes warfare impersonal and with no human toll, we will be more apt to engage in it.  i think that's BS.  for many enemies, the human toll is not an issue anyway. 

even though the libs have been working hard to tell us that morality is a relative concept and there are no absolutes, i'd like to hold the fantasy that we would not engage in war just because it became easy.  it's probably not realistic to hold onto that fantasy....hard to believe the changes that have taken place in my life time, as it is....but i'll cling to it anyway.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2009, 10:55:04 AM »

I posted once of the most kills in the war on terror belonging to a teenage predator pilot out of Nevada.

I think I will live long enough for the US govt to deploy remote controlled attack helis and jets. Id expect them to be throwing billions at it. Add the constantly upgraded sat imaging and stuff and the grunt will be safer than he ever has been.

And there will still have to be brave soldiers who will have to put boots on the ground and go in harm's way. "Safer" is a fantasy.
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"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams.

mick
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« Reply #68 on: December 14, 2009, 01:57:29 AM »

If you look at history, the Allies have waged war against governments, countries, peoples, call em what you will, that have all been treating their so called citizens with various forms of bastardry. Its hard tell the diff between those giving it and those taking it. These people have no idea of humanity. Women are still treated as chattels in many parts of the world they keep their goats in better health. Either you know what I mean or you dont.

Ive been reading Atkinsons "In the company of soldiers" He was embedded into the 101st during Iraq MKII. He describes early on in the book about just how many lawyers are involved in war nowdays. His sources put it down to Grenada when lawyers were used by the Rangers. Troops became involved in dealing with mayors, officials, etc and to paraphrase, then everybody was saying thats something a lawyer should do, and thus we have what we have now.

Rules of engagement are "can we, should we". Yes we can is easy, by the time you have debated the "should we" ala Operation Redwing, its too late, youve lost the upper hand.

Safer is an achievable goal. If its not at the forefront of our leaders minds, then we are just cannon fodder like in WW1 when the Tommies would send 500 men "over the top" all day long until they had lost 30,000 or more for not an inch of ground taken.

A generation ago, people were not fussed by casualties to the extent they are now. I dont know if it was ignorance or civic duty. The US government and many others now actually place a value on life, rather than a time period for training the replacement.

Its no good us putting such a high value on human life as to be afraid to take the initiative in war. If you do that you lose. WE just have to keep holding our governments accountable for everything they do. To do that, we need smarter populations, not dumber ones like we seem to have now.

Theres one group of people getting away with murder and thats the arms manufacturers and dealers.

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kathyp
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« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2009, 10:26:03 AM »

Quote
Theres one group of people getting away with murder and thats the arms manufacturers and dealers.

they are kind of important?  what should we do? shall we decide the outcome of conflict by finding a snowy bank and having a yellow calligraphy contest?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 09:32:10 AM by kathyp » Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
mick
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« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2009, 01:59:38 AM »

Nah, id just have more control on arms sales, manufacture and distribution. Countries like Albania and Romania sell AKs by the boat load to whoever has the cash.
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lenape13
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« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2009, 06:07:45 AM »

Free Trade and Free Marketing at its finest cool
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