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Author Topic: what is wrong with the military and why America will never again win a major war  (Read 7030 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2009, 11:36:33 AM »

i think the referring to terrorists and enemy combatants as "criminals" is what got us into this in the first place. 

define due process.  are you talking about constitutional due process?

kill them all and let god sort them out?  that would be a solution.  beats reading them their rights and trying them in US courts.


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Would you prefer a system that condones the authorities  to abuse those who are in their custody
 

are we redefining abuse, as we redefined torture? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
reinbeau
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« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2009, 11:47:14 AM »

Sorry, but I have a problem with granting non-citizens rights - they aren't Americans, heck, they're enemies of the USA, and we're supposed to treat them with the kid gloves they somehow have lost when they cindify our citizens and hang them from bridges?  War is war, fight it and don't cry about casualties.  If you're crying about them then you just don't have the stones for the battle.  Step aside and let those who do deal with it, and leave them the heck alone. 

So, Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out?
I have no problem with that.  It's easy to be an armchair jockey making judgements all over our men and women in the armed forces.  I won't do that - I'm not there, fighting for us (unfortunately). 
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kathyp
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« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2009, 01:59:47 PM »

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=34591

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=34710

kind of interesting if accurate.  maybe the skipper just didn't have the balls to take care of this himself.  so much easier and safer for him to pass it up.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2009, 04:45:46 PM »

I can offer a different take on this I believe and sort of explain what led me to post this in the first place.

I am an Infantry soldier preparing for a deployment in January. I have been going through premob training for the last couple of months. During this time half of the briefs I have been given deal with not offending the enemy/ locals. 1/4 deal with soldier issues and another 1/4 deal with fighting the enemy. To me that just seems wrong and way to P/C instead of my superiors focusing training on the skills I need to bring my soldiers home, we spend half our time not offending the enemy.

That is the point I was trying to make first we spend valuable training time on P/C garbage. Next we fail to realize the rifle I carry was designed to kill not make friends with the enemy.

My biggest fear of war is not if the enemy will kill me, but if I make a mistake how long will my country put me in jail.

Keith





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John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2009, 04:48:29 PM »

Keith,

On behalf of my family and myself thank you for your service. Keep your head down over there.

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David LaFerney
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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2009, 05:36:37 PM »

i think the referring to terrorists and enemy combatants as "criminals" is what got us into this in the first place. 

define due process.  are you talking about constitutional due process?

kill them all and let god sort them out?  that would be a solution.  beats reading them their rights and trying them in US courts.


Quote
Would you prefer a system that condones the authorities  to abuse those who are in their custody
 

are we redefining abuse, as we redefined torture? 

Criminal, terrorist, detainee, torture, abuse, rough interrogation, due process - all just words.  If someone put handcuffs on my brother and then hit him I think the word I would use for that is wrong, and I wouldn't like it, and personally I believe in that whole "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" thing.

I imagine the seal lost his temper - because he's human - and then allegedly (because I also believe in innocence until proven guilty) he broke the rules.  He should have the opportunity to plea his case before the proper authority, and he should have the right to counsel.  If he is guilty he should be responsible for his actions.  If he is innocent he should be exonerated. 

I think that abuse and torture and due process have already been defined by international laws which our country is obligated to follow because of treaties which we are a party to.  Which we agreed to without coercion.  So do we or don't we believe in the rule of law? 
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kathyp
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« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2009, 05:46:12 PM »

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I think that abuse and torture and due process have already been defined by international laws which our country is obligated to follow because of treaties which we are a party to.  Which we agreed to without coercion.  So do we or don't we believe in the rule of law? 


they have, and then we, in our infinite wisdom, defined them down some more.  water boarding, for instance, does not meet the geneva conventions definition of torture.  neither does sleep deprivation and stress position.  yet we (thank you john mccain) have taken these useful tools away from our own intel.  we know they work or we would not use rendition to make use of these tools through proxy parties. 

this could have been taken care of at the command level.  instead we have played to the terrorist playbook and made a  federal case of a punch.  we demoralize our own and are a laughing stock to our enemies. 

it's wrong on so many levels, but after thinking about it, the thing that disturbs me the most is the lack of leadership shown by their command.  how can you fight a war, or expect the kids to go out and fight, if the leadership has no balls?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2009, 05:56:22 PM »

this could have been taken care of at the command level. 


Do I remember correctly that it was the SEALs who refused NJP and asked for the court martial? Seems like I read that in the initial reports...

***off to research***
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kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2009, 06:19:21 PM »

NJP goes in the record.  if you have career goals, it's not the way to go.  if you believe you are innocent, better to go to mast.  the navy is different in how these things handled. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2009, 06:25:51 PM »

NJP goes in the record.  if you have career goals, it's not the way to go.  if you believe you are innocent, better to go to mast.  the navy is different in how these things handled. 

They must be different because what you just posted doesn't make any sense at all.
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"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams.

kathyp
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« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2009, 06:33:00 PM »

what doesn't make sense?  if you get NJP it goes in your jacket it will impact your career.   this is especially true if you are a non-com, and especially if you are in a tight rate/specialty.  if you go to mast and are cleared, your career is saved.  you are not punished for something that you are cleared of.

in this case, their career is over if they take NJP or if they are found guilty.  why not try to be cleared?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2009, 06:40:16 PM »

I think I see the problem. You're confusing mast with court martial. Mast (Admiral's or Captain's, depending on the rank of the CO) is Non Judicial Punishment (NJP), or as the other branches refer to it an "Article 15", which refers to the section of the UCMJ covering NJP.
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"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams.

kathyp
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« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2009, 06:49:28 PM »

oh no.  believe me, i know the difference.  did they not ask for captains mast?  i did not hear that they had asked for courts martial.  i'll have to go do my own reading  grin

you are correct.

Quote
he chose to push the matter to the next step, the “special court martial,” which all three now face unless Cleveland changes his mind or a higher-level commander intervenes

so much the better.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2009, 06:57:41 PM »

oh no.  believe me, i know the difference.

Well, you may know the difference but based on what you posted at 6:33 it doesn't appear that you do.

 
Quote
did they not ask for captains mast?  i did not hear that they had asked for courts martial.  i'll have to go do my own reading  grin

That's a great idea. Let me know what you find out.
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"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams.

kathyp
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« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2009, 06:58:59 PM »

i already did.  read the post.  please point out my error.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2009, 07:02:22 PM »

i already did.  read the post.  please point out my error.

Which one?
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kathyp
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« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2009, 07:05:42 PM »

how about all of them?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2009, 07:09:56 PM »

how about all of them?

1. You confused NJP/Mast/Article 15 with Court Martial.

2. You said this could have been handled at the command level. The SEALs themselves refused that.

3. (not as much as an error but a question) Where did this quote come from: "he chose to push the matter to the next step, the “special court martial,” which all three now face unless Cleveland changes his mind or a higher-level commander intervenes"?"
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"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams.

kathyp
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« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2009, 07:25:01 PM »

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You confused NJP/Mast/Article 15 with Court Martial.

i did not, but i did not realize that they had requested a courts martial. my mistake for not reading the article more closely.

  both NJP and mast can be handled at the command level.  NJP does not always require a captains mast, but should be noted in the record......although, if i send a kid to clean the head with a toothbrush and that solves the problem, i probably will not make a written counseling report. 

the seals refused the NJP at the command level. to me, this says they had no faith in the command.  they could have been cleared at the command level with a captains mast.....

3 came out of the second article that i posted earlier.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2009, 07:29:28 PM »



3 came out of the second article that i posted earlier.

That explains it. That article was riddled with factual errors.

So how long did you serve in the Navy?
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"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams.

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