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Author Topic: what is wrong with the military and why America will never again win a major war  (Read 6942 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2009, 07:31:00 PM »

as a daughter, member, wife, or mother?   grin

my own service was 15 years.


what were the errors in the article?  and how do you know?

oh, and sister!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2009, 07:35:24 PM »

15 years? If you stayed 15, why didn't you stick it out for the next 5?
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kathyp
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« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2009, 07:40:15 PM »

sure would have wanted to.  hubby got his commission and i was about to make chief.  short of moving, there was no place for me to go and not be in the same command.  + we had teenage boys...and all that goes with them.  seemed that something had to give, and his retirement as an 06 will be much better than mine would have been. 

i thought about trying another service but after all those years playing with the marines, i couldn't bring myself to switch   grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2009, 08:37:59 PM »

kathyp; don't know which Navy you served in, but in the US Navy "Captain's Mast" is NJP. The term arose from the custom of the captain of sailing ships to administer punishment "before the mast" with all hands present for making an example of the offender. I served 15 years in the Navy, enlisted and officer, and have represented a few of my men at Captain's Mast. A record of the NJP is entered in your service record and can be used to determine future assignments and promotions etc. I don't know about the ability to expunge a Mast from a service record but most Masts are for minor infractions and don't have much effect if any on a sailors future.
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kathyp
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« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2009, 09:10:51 PM »

technically, true, however.....

i have seen NJP ordered by the skipper without the formality of mast and with no record entry.  which maybe doesn't make it technically NJP smiley this could have been done in this case.

if there is going to be a reduction in rank, or pay, etc. there is no getting around mast.  if the infraction is enough to tick off the skipper and cause him/her to confine someone to quarters, etc. it is not so uncommon to have it not end up on the record.  

you can not have mast without the risk of NJP, but you can have action without the mast and without the record.

i also wonder how muddled this got because it was a joint services command.  i would rather have gone to mast than a court martial. who made the decision about the punishment?  if the punishment offered was indeed a letter of reprimand, you can not blame them for fighting it.

all this, remembering that those who are writing these articles probably have no military background which might explain some of the confused reporting.  i have read several articles and they all say different things.

we will know more next month.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2009, 09:26:50 PM »

technically, true, however.....

i have seen NJP ordered by the skipper without the formality of mast and with no record entry.  which maybe doesn't make it technically NJP smiley this could have been done in this case.

if there is going to be a reduction in rank, or pay, etc. there is no getting around mast.  if the infraction is enough to tick off the skipper and cause him/her to confine someone to quarters, etc. it is not so uncommon to have it not end up on the record.  

you can not have mast without the risk of NJP, but you can have action without the mast and without the record.

i also wonder how muddled this got because it was a joint services command.  i would rather have gone to mast than a court martial. who made the decision about the punishment?  if the punishment offered was indeed a letter of reprimand, you can not blame them for fighting it.

all this, remembering that those who are writing these articles probably have no military background which might explain some of the confused reporting.  i have read several articles and they all say different things.

we will know more next month.  

I don't see what the joint services command has to do with it. All services are subject to the same UCMJ.

ETA: What did you do for the Navy? Since you mentioned the Marines I'm going to take a wild guess and say corpsman...
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« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2009, 09:34:53 PM »

how things are handled at the command level is not the same.  one of the things i  have read, is that the letter of reprimand was going to be entered without the sailors going to mast.  don't know if that's true, but as the story seems to go, the army officer was told he couldn't do that.  that the sailors had the right to a hearing.  apparently, it's different in the army.  maybe some army person here will know.

having done joint services stuff, i can attest to the fact that services do things very differently.  i am sure that once you reach the court martial stage, it's UCMJ all the way.

i just don't know...and if we are all getting our info from the press, i guess none of us know.

off to schlep more water to the barn.  if you figure it all out, let me know   Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2009, 09:36:20 PM »

Thanks for your service to those of you have served.
I was at Ft. Bening just long enough for them to figure out I wasn't faking the limp plus two months to make me regret lying to get in grin.

As to the original subject at hand, Why in the world are these enemy soldiers living long enough to have a complaint against our soldiers? huh  If we as a country are mad enough to go to war then it's time to accept that horrible things are about to happen.  If he's a nobody, kill him... If he's a somebody, do whatever you have to do to get him to believe that he is next in line to be killed... Get the information and then kill him... Before to long people will start to realise that the differances between us were not as horiffic as they thought and we'll be able to meet in the middle without giving in (or just plain win Kiss).

Also, blaming a Seal for violence is similar to acting outraged when a pitbull attacks something...  They exist for a reason. We train them to respond with total aggression.  Why the shock over something so small as a punch?  More violence occurs on our streets to law-abiding citizens on a daily basis and we're upset because tommorrows suicide bomber got a few teeth re-alighned???  I had it worse than that in junior-high. grin
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« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2009, 01:30:16 AM »

This rubbish has been going on for years and is a direct result of the Mai Lai (sp) massacre in Vietnam.

How many hundreds of thousands of Service personnel are working for the JAG Corps & Co.? All working hard to continue to grow their branch and feeding off themselves. Looking in to things they shouldnt be in order to keep their jobs.

What is happening in Civil society with regard to over zealous prosecution of petty crimes is happening in the Armed forces but in the Service, theres no one to complain to.

Politics involved in Leadership positions have also led to this over bearing situation.

In WW2 etc, when millions were fighting, everyone was too bloody busy trying to win a war to worry about what the MPs couldnt handle.

Now,  you have relatively small combat forces deployed around the world. A Platoon enters an area. Theres cams on circling jets and choppers, cams on Soldiers, satellites looking down and thousands of doo gooders watching every move, debating on what can happen next. While Troops are being injured and killed.

People will stop serving for the good of the Nation and only serve for the educational benefits. If the current rules of engagement continue this trend, the forces will become an uneducated rabble. Deployment will lead to disaster. Leaders will be too frightened to lead effectively.

Above all, all these ridiculous rules and charges just act to cheapen the sacrifices made in our name. Combat vets being given dishonorable discharges instead of medals and pensions.

Its a bloody crime.

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John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2009, 08:24:39 AM »

Combat vets being given dishonorable discharges instead of medals and pensions.

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« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2009, 11:17:40 AM »

everyone:

     I think most if not all of you are not getting "the big picture", and seem to believe that the basic purpose of the exercise is to preserve and perpetuate what we loosely call "the American way of life".

     IMHO, the real game is to instigate "one world government" whose goals and objectives are to "average out" the standards of living of everyone in the world, except for the elite.  A very rough idea of the new "system" would be that graduates of whatever programs Harvard offers would be the elite with the rest of the indifferent populace being their semi-slaves, The new enemy of such a society would be what today we call the "conservatives".

     It would be necessary to combat the forces of conservatism through control of the educational process, and by gradually legislating against the expression of conservative ideals. Peer pressure could be brought to bear to the extent that expressing a conservative opinion would be equal to uttering "the "N" word" today.

     INMO , the Moslem based religions are an excellent vehicle for bringing to fruition these ideals, as they seem to do what they are told without question, and be very intolerant of contrary positions.

     Back to the question at hand, a case can be made for being nice to those we capture, as some of them will "escape" "be deported" or declared political prisoners and freed, and eventually become part of our (or the world's) ruling class.

     Anybody read Robert Bork's "Slouching toward Gommorah" or "The New World Order by Gary Kah?

     No, I am not applauding any of these changes, but believe that they will likely come to pass.\

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« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2009, 11:30:33 AM »

Quote
Combat vets being given dishonorable discharges instead of medals and pensions.

don't know about dishonorable discharges, but Lt Col West would be a good example of someone having their career hosed by the military.  sometimes the wrong thing is the right thing to do.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2009, 11:47:22 AM »

Here's a wonderful idea... Since it seems that no one likes us no matter what we do, let's do nothing.  Let's bring ALL of our people home from around the world, since they don't want us there anyway, cut off ALL aid to foreign countries, secure our borders and let the world fall apart.  After all of the warlords and terrorists have killed off everyone in the world, including each other, we can simply rule over the ashes and have lots of natural resources for ourselves.
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John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2009, 11:58:55 AM »

 sometimes the wrong thing is the right thing to do.

I agree. And if you do the wrong thing for the right reason the honorable thing to do is to admit it and accept your punishment.

Quote

don't know about dishonorable discharges, but Lt Col West would be a good example of someone having their career hosed by the military.

I hate to quote a wiki article, but with that caveat:
Quote
West, who at the time was just short of having 20 years of service, was charged with violating articles 128 (assault) and 134 (general article) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and was in danger of receiving an 11 year prison sentence, dishonorable discharge and losing his retirement benefits. West was processed through an Article 32 hearing in November 2003, where he admitted wrongdoing, was fined $5,000 over two months for misconduct and assault. He then submitted his resignation, and was allowed to retire with full benefits in the summer of 2004.

If the wiki is true, given the maximum sentence for the charges, it would appear that Lt. Col. West received a very minor punishment. I would hazard a guess that if he'd lied about what happened he wouldn't have fared so well.
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« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2009, 12:32:37 PM »

Just thought of another brief that can apply here as well.

A JAG officer was giving a brief on mercy killings. How they are illegal to do and went on to cite an example. She went on to tell the story of a convoy of MRAPs moving down the road as a carload of iraqis tried to pass the MRAP. When the driver went to pass an IED was detonated with the target the MRAP but the car was instantly blown up and set on fire. The INF soldiers dismounted and secured the area killing the trigger man. While this was going on other soldiers were trying to get the kids out of the back seat of the car. When the fire was too great the soldiers were forced to back off. the screams of the last child could be heard as he was burning to death. The NCOIC pulled his side arm and shot the kid so that he wouldnt continue to burn and put him out of his mercy, if you will. This NCO was sentenced to 10 years at leavenworth for his actions.

Makes you scared to be a soldier huh?

Keith
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kathyp
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« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2009, 01:02:34 PM »

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jihadmanual.html

this is the enemy

Quote
it would appear that Lt. Col. West received a very minor punishment. I would hazard a guess that if he'd lied about what happened he wouldn't have fared so well.


this is the problem.  we have tied the hands of our fighting men and women.  we have made them more concerned with CYA than doing their job.  we have told them by our rules of engagement, that their lives are not worth as much as the lives of the enemy.

one of the reasons West was allowed to retire is that there was a massive public outcry against what was happening to him.  isn't it sad that the public has to stand up for our soldiers because the military will not?

this generation of military will be telling their children not to join.  what will you be left with?  

with apologies to the JAGs out there, you are a big part of the problem.  you have been indoctrinated to apply constitutional privilege to enemy combatants at the expense of our soldiers.  you have your little book in hand, and your path leads you in the only direction your tunnel vision allows you to see.  you are not alone in the blame.  our senior military is politicized.  we have very few that will stand up for what is right at the risk of their career.  the rules of engagement that we currently have in Afghanistan are ridiculous.  they were put in place by the military at the insistence of this admin.  not one senior military person stood up against these rules.  to worried about their careers.

can you imagine applying these kinds of restrictions and prosecutions to those who fought in WW2?  we'd all be speaking German or Japanese.

i wish the next generation of military well, but they will be no more than a technologically enhanced version of the blue hats.  maybe that's ok?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2009, 02:05:55 AM »

If you want citations, google dishonorable discharge and look beyond last weeks news.
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John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2009, 07:50:19 AM »

If you want citations, google dishonorable discharge and look beyond last weeks news.

When one makes a statement of fact the burden of proof belongs to them. 
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« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2009, 01:48:19 PM »

America will ALWAYS THRIVE as long as it distinguish the RIGHT thing to do, or the WRONG thing to do - and to always choose the right thing, even when it was ONLY the LEAST OF TWO EVILS. Imagine being in a position where 40 friendly's could be saved in a battle fight "OR" 4 of you buddies who will all die if you save the friendly's. That is the difference between US and the darker governments of this Planet.

I don't know if I morally would have to preserve my men first and only or save 20 lives (5 times more people) that have done nothing wrong and do do not deserve to die. But such choices are made by our older teenagers and kids in their 20s, not to ever forget the many RESERVISTS who are long ready to retire and are still in war cammo and serving on the front line.

This is the crap our military has to deal with nearly every day. We can only hope (and yes Conservatives listen to this) I did think George the 2nd wisely sent in a surge of military and successfully pulling out on time scales - some so secret, we know nothing about.

Obama should be so lucky for our armed forces until they safely come home - if it takes another surge, these men and women will be leave before the end of this month, Merry Christmas and may God Bless.

So.... When do we start the clock that all the terrorists wait from our already exposed EXIT STRATEGY from Obama. Think they'll even give it a month before they spred about like cockroaches left alone at a all you can eat buffet. If that were to happen, if we aren't able to get their police and military up to par to fight the bad guys, aren't we leading them to slaughter? That is some deal there, hope that college fund thing works out when the government is done with you.

Kathy P is right, service the goverment in miltary means has its place and time, and times to stay out of it, at the latter is here now. If all hell breaks loose the fear is always a draft, surely we can flatten that area to pulp before we'd ever need a draft wouldn't we?

Just catching up on ideas where people stand.

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« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2009, 02:59:42 PM »

I honestly believed that when the towers were attacked that the rules of pursuit had changed there and then - forever - any nation harboring terrorists would be advised that their choices would be assist, step aside or face the consequences of standing in the way. Sometime later came the conspiracy crowd  - presenting unbearably pseudo scientific evidence enough to confuse someone who didn't have the stones to question the motives of the dirtbags making accusations against (our) people. I wont give examples, that's a completely different topic and if you believe the consipiracy nonsense - no rational and accurate assessment will convince you anyway. The result was it undermined our unity with the exception of the most ridiculous peaceniks whose motto has to be - "surrender no matter what" (who were already singing the praises of doing nothing at all)
 I hate to say that the civil rights movement did bring some long needed changes to us but a very ugly resentment of all things authority came with it. - those people are authority now and they are still sticking it to 'the man' only now the only 'man' left is the US military.
        To address the topic headline more directly- I think in a sufficient emergency our military can separate the nonsense that hinders from effective battle plans  - when politicians need them more than they need the politicians.
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