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Author Topic: what is wrong with the military and why America will never again win a major war  (Read 7027 times)
Keith13
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« on: December 07, 2009, 04:29:09 PM »

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,579665,00.html?test=latestnews

The military has begun the trial of 3 navy seals. One is accused of punching the terrorist that just finished stringing 3 American contractors to a bridge and setting them on fire. the other 2 seals are standing by their fellow sailors. Just think if we put the soldiers on trial fromm WW11 that made the german civilians dig the graves of the prison camps. Or any soldier who hit a Japenese soldier after he tried to carve him up with a samari sword.

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David LaFerney
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« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2009, 05:47:51 PM »

Several years ago a Nashville pharmacist's infant grandchild was brought to the emergency room by his daughter and her boyfriend who had scalded the child - dead on arrival.  The pharmacist walked in to the emergency waiting room and shot the guy to death, then laid down his weapon and calmly gave his self up to the police. 

His plea was something to the effect of "he had it coming, and I would do it again".    The jury found him guilty of the least charge that wouldn't result in a mistrial, and his sentence was little more than time served by the completion of the trial.  About a year I think. 

The system still often works, and hopefully it will work for those seals too.
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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2009, 06:03:24 PM »

the system may work, but that's not the issue.  when you bring these kinds of crap charges against our military members, moral is destroyed. 

if a kid came to me right now and asked my advice about joining the military, i'd tell them to find another career.  if my boys ask about staying in, i'll tell them to get out.  it's just not worth it any more.

unless our military gets some senior people who are less interested in CYA, than in doing the job, the kids we send out are without support....never mind leadership. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2009, 06:06:33 PM »

You will not find anyone more supportive of our military than Mrs. Pettimore and I. We're both AF vets, Mrs. Pettimore is also an AF brat.

That being said, given the information that has been released about this incident the individuals involved are dead wrong. The terrorist was in custody and was assaulted. The SEALs lied to investigators about what happened. 3 other SEALs witnessed the incident and provided statements.

If they had admitted what happened instead of lying about it they most likely would have gotten by with at the very most a LOR. The lying about it is what is the major issue here, at least to my mind.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2009, 06:08:04 PM »

I can't even use the words to describe how much this torques me off.  The PC morons are destroying our country from the very heart of it.  Demoralizing our servicemen is just too much to bear.....

Does he still have his head on his shoulders?  Is he hanging, burnt to a crisp from a bridge?  This is war.  You don't prosecute people involved in a war.  

Edited to remove my last remark,I posted at the same time as the post above me.
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kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2009, 06:23:31 PM »

as of the last report i read, the defense did not have the info on the witness statements or info used to bring the charges.  you and the wife must have access to better info than the JAG has......

there is a simple solution.  don't arrest the bad guys.  kill them where you find them.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
David LaFerney
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« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2009, 06:26:57 PM »

the system may work, but that's not the issue.  when you bring these kinds of crap charges against our military members, moral is destroyed. 

if a kid came to me right now and asked my advice about joining the military, i'd tell them to find another career.  if my boys ask about staying in, i'll tell them to get out.  it's just not worth it any more.

unless our military gets some senior people who are less interested in CYA, than in doing the job, the kids we send out are without support....never mind leadership. 

I think that the context of the seals actions should be taken into consideration, but here is the question:  Should our people be allowed under the rules to physically assault prisoners who are already in custody (assuming that is what happened) or should there be (as there are) rules against?  If assaulting prisoners is to be against the rules, then should there be repercussions for breaking those rules.  IE - do we believe in the rule of law or not?  What would you like to see happen in cases like this?
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John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2009, 06:30:01 PM »

as of the last report i read, the defense did not have the info on the witness statements or info used to bring the charges.

I was going by the initial news stories that came out right after the incident.


Quote
there is a simple solution.  don't arrest the bad guys.  kill them where you find them.

I'm ok with that. Or beat the crap out of them in the process of taking them down. Or even after you have them handcuffed and tied to a chair. Just remember that actions have consequences.  And always remember that lying is an honor violation.
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"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams.

kathyp
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« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2009, 06:46:09 PM »

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What would you like to see happen in cases like this?

i'd like to see these cases not exist.  when a prisoner say "that guy punched me", the answer should be "so what".  we are talking about a navy seal.  he's trained to kill with his bare hands.  the prisoner was not hurt.  must not have been much of a punch.

yes, lying is a violation.  i can see why the guys are so afraid to tell the truth.  1st, reference above and 2nd, they are scared to death that whatever happens, or is reported to have happened, they will be ruined. 

this is the kind of thing that makes good people leave.  then you are left with things like that inbred POS involved in Abu Ghraib and her officer Karpinski.  3 generations of my family have served and not one of us wants to see our kids or grandkids go into this military.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
ayyon2157
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« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2009, 11:04:47 PM »

for John Lee Pettimore:

     It came as a shock to me to be reminded that lying is an honor violation.  Of course it is, but I had not seen it pointed out for so long that I had almost forgotten it. Here in the "North" lying has become so common as to attract little notice, not to mention disapproved of for at least a decade.

     You are probably too young a man to remember how much attention was paid to the incident when then president Eisenhower lied over the U-2 incident. (there is some facinating "conspiracy theory" about that incident)

     Indignation over president Clinton's apparent lies over his alleged sexual indiscretions aroused a small amount of disapproval, and within the last few years we seem to have not only acccepted lying but come to expect it.  Anyway, it shocked me to realize how little value is placed on truthfullness or honor. This is not surprising, as all through my formative years I generally got punished for always telling the truth.

     Nowdays, and I blush to admit it, I at least weigh the possibilities of lying my way out of something unpleasant.

     How this flaw in our society affects our ability to win wars is undeterminable, but in my opinion it would be negative.

      My point of view would be that ESPECIALLY Navy seals or any other highly trained member of an elite unit should follow orders whether they like them or not.  (my father in law is buried in Italy along with his Ranger comrades)

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William H. Michaels
kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2009, 12:13:23 AM »

how about it we don't Murtha these guys  before they go to trial.....and then keep your kids out of a military that has made rules of engagement sure to get your kids killed, or thrown in the brig.

i'll change my opinion when this country remembers we are fighting a war and not throwing a tea party.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2009, 12:42:10 AM »

Brings to mind an old saying that "all is fair in love and war."  Seems like we're trying to fight wars with rules the other guys don't go by rules.  Yet for some odd reason we're held to a higher standard.  Just goes to show you if there is ever another Sgt. York he'll be put on trial instead of given a metal.  What is our country thinking?
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« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2009, 07:50:19 AM »

What is our country thinking?
Many of them aren't thinking, they're 'feeling'.   Liberals are so soft they have no concept of what being in a war truly means.  Liberalism is truly a mental disorder. 
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« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2009, 09:19:37 AM »

Perjury is like a Bark that's worse than it's Bite.
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David LaFerney
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« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2009, 10:07:16 AM »

What is our country thinking?

Many of them aren't thinking, they're 'feeling'. 

Actually what would feel good would probably be to kick the $%^& out of the prisoner in a case like this.  But the thought behind not doing things like that is that humane treatment of helpless people (including criminals) makes civilized societies different from savages.  Better IMHO.

I hope that the soldiers get off with a slap on the wrist if that is in fact what is appropriate - and it sounds like it is.  But this mountain would have probably remained a mole hill if he had told the investigator something like "Yes, I hit him.  I'll try to do better in the future."  It's amazing what those words will let you get away with. 
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kathyp
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« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2009, 10:34:45 AM »

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(including criminals)

'splains a lot, lucy.   evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2009, 10:40:39 AM »

Sorry, but I have a problem with granting non-citizens rights - they aren't Americans, heck, they're enemies of the USA, and we're supposed to treat them with the kid gloves they somehow have lost when they cindify our citizens and hang them from bridges?  War is war, fight it and don't cry about casualties.  If you're crying about them then you just don't have the stones for the battle.  Step aside and let those who do deal with it, and leave them the heck alone. 
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John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2009, 10:48:02 AM »

There are standards of conduct that our soldiers are expected to uphold. When they fail to do so they are subject to punishment.

We can argue about what the standards should be. We can argue what the punishment should be for failing to uphold said standards.

As I said before, the case against these sailors (to me, as a veteran) is more about their conduct after the incident, rather than about what actually happened to give the prisoner a split lip.
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David LaFerney
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« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2009, 11:06:08 AM »

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(including criminals)

'splains a lot, lucy.   evil

Would you prefer a system that condones the authorities  to abuse those who are in their custody?  So, due process could be: beat a confession out of them, and hey, why not just go ahead and execute them on the spot and dump the body in the river.  Save all the trouble and expense of a trial.  Surely you don't think that would be good.  How do you keep that from happening once it's alright to just smack 'em around a bit once the cuffs are on?  

So if you think that it explains a lot that I think even people I don't like should be allowed basic human rights - even when it's frustrating or inconvenient - I'm alright with that.  



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David LaFerney
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« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2009, 11:25:02 AM »

Sorry, but I have a problem with granting non-citizens rights - they aren't Americans, heck, they're enemies of the USA, and we're supposed to treat them with the kid gloves they somehow have lost when they cindify our citizens and hang them from bridges?  War is war, fight it and don't cry about casualties.  If you're crying about them then you just don't have the stones for the battle.  Step aside and let those who do deal with it, and leave them the heck alone. 

So, Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out?
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

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