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Offline PeeVee

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foundationless question
« on: December 06, 2009, 02:29:30 AM »
I read a lot here and elsewhere about frame modification for foundationless use.

I don't remember coming across utilizing horizontal wires in foundationless frames.

Is wiring done? Ever without foundation?
-Paul VanSlyke - Cheers from Deposit,NY

Offline RayMarler

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Re: foundationless question
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2009, 02:30:51 AM »
I've not done it myself but I've seen other people that do it on deep frames and it seems to work for them.
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Offline Lovett

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Re: foundationless question
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2009, 10:29:32 AM »
I use a thin piece of wood, pop sickle sticks or a  1/2 paint sticks as a starter strip in the groove of the top bar and horizontal wire. It works great! It's better to take to chamfer the bottoms of the top bar each side of the starter strip. This discourages the bees from starting comb on the bottom corner edges. I also wax my starter strip.(because it make me feel better) Many say that's not necessary.

Offline alfred

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Re: foundationless question
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2009, 10:50:27 AM »
I am doing all medium and some foundationless some not. Pretty sure that if you string it up with wire that they will try to build around it and you will have a mess. They certainly wont build it over the wire nice and neat. I think that if you are thinking of deep brood frames that the comb will be plenty strong without the wire especially after it has been used to raise brood in.

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Offline PeeVee

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Re: foundationless question
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2009, 12:57:01 PM »
Thanks for the replies.

Yeah, I had heard of the bees doing crazy stuff with any obstruction, so I will probably side step the wiring. The idea I had in my head was to make the comb more sound for extraction in medium supers.

I do plan on starter strips. I'm making my own frames so I might try milling the starter strip in the configuration of the top bar. Other frames I have made with the standard top bar as I had purchased wired foundation.
-Paul VanSlyke - Cheers from Deposit,NY

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: foundationless question
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2009, 03:08:15 PM »
>I read a lot here and elsewhere about frame modification for foundationless use.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

>I don't remember coming across utilizing horizontal wires in foundationless frames.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#dowire

>Is wiring done? Ever without foundation?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#canwire
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Offline PeeVee

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Re: foundationless question
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2009, 08:53:57 PM »
Michael,
Thanks for pointing me in that direction.
-Paul VanSlyke - Cheers from Deposit,NY

Offline jdpro5010

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Re: foundationless question
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2009, 04:33:37 PM »
I use foundationless frames (deeps).  I wire all of them and have not had 1 problem that has been due to wiring.  I have had problems when hive is not level or no drawn comb frame has been added to the box to help as a guide.

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Re: foundationless question
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2009, 05:19:31 PM »
we don't wire any of our foundationless frames (all deeps).

remember, that the original reason for integrating wires was not to strengthen the comb for handling/extraction (although it does add some strength).  wiring frames was not done until foundation came into common use.

the purpose of wiring frames is to keep the foundation from sagging as the bees hang on it before/as the comb is drawn.  if you are not using foundation, this is not an issue.

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Offline PeeVee

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Re: foundationless question
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2009, 04:54:47 AM »
we don't wire any of our foundationless frames (all deeps).

remember, that the original reason for integrating wires was not to strengthen the comb for handling/extraction (although it does add some strength).  wiring frames was not done until foundation came into common use.

the purpose of wiring frames is to keep the foundation from sagging as the bees hang on it before/as the comb is drawn.  if you are not using foundation, this is not an issue.

deknow


Sorry to the late reply to your post - been distracted...

I didn't know that was the reason for the wire. Learn something new everyday.

so, when was the general use of foundation started? (seems like I should know that too  :?)

I plan on introducing some foundationless frames in the Spring.
-Paul VanSlyke - Cheers from Deposit,NY

Offline Robo

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Re: foundationless question
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2009, 01:14:38 PM »
Is wiring done? Ever without foundation?

Yes, I wire all my frames.  Once they build the comb to the first wire you don't have to worry about comb failure.   Remember, with foundationless, it will take the bees a long time (if ever) before they will attach the comb on all 4 sides.   Since starting to wire, I have not had a single comb failure.  I don't care how careful you are, without wiring, you will experience the dreaded comb failure at some point.  The bees have no issues building the comb around the wire.



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Offline kathyp

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Re: foundationless question
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2009, 01:24:57 PM »
i don't wire mine, but robo is right, it is easier to handle.  i'm just lazy  :-D

once the frames are built most of the way out and the comb is attached on the sides, it's not an issue.  early in comb building you have to handle if carefully.  if you don't, the comb will break out. 
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Re: foundationless question
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2009, 01:31:01 PM »
mmm, we've been doing foundationless deeps for 6+ years and never wired them.  i'd estimate 1000 or so frames in the field?

i've  had, i think, 1 "comb failure".  the trick is how you handle the frames.  instead of "grabbing" them, i tend to rest the top bar ears on my fingers so that the frame balances itself.  i'm not sure how to describe the "turning the  frame over", but you keep the comb perpendicular to the ground.

the biggest problem was training the bee inspector :)

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Offline PeeVee

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Re: foundationless question
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2009, 04:02:27 AM »
Well!

With these varied answers, I guess I'll try some with and some without to see what suits my situation.

Thanks to all who replied :-D I do indeed value the responses.
-Paul VanSlyke - Cheers from Deposit,NY

Offline Robo

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Re: foundationless question
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2009, 08:29:11 AM »
the trick is how you handle the frames.  instead of "grabbing" them, i tend to rest the top bar ears on my fingers so that the frame balances itself. 

Handling individual frames usually isn't where the issues occur,  it's when your trying to juggle multiple frames at a time when it usually happens.  Trying to find a place to temporarily prop a removed frame or even dropping it (especially for those that where gloves or use frame grips) is where a lot of the failures occur. I know there are things like frame rests and empty supers that can be used,  but there are always those times when you don't have them with you, or are going to take a quick look and end up having to dig in deeper.   These are the times when it is bound to happen.

If we only ever had to have one framed removed at a time  ;)
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Offline kathyp

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Re: foundationless question
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2009, 11:06:35 AM »
if you have an empty box to keep out there, you can use it to keep your frames safe as you inspect. 
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

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Re: foundationless question
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2009, 12:25:55 PM »
i dunno...i routinely put hives leaning against the next hive with their sidebars on the ground.  i have more trouble with dirt on the frame than i do with comb breakage.  i understand that this can be an issue, but i have not experienced it, and we have almost all wireless foundationles deeps.  i have 2 frame perches, and i only use them if i'm taking pictures.

deknow

Offline jgiles

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Re: foundationless question
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2009, 12:17:20 PM »
I have done foundationless for a year and wired all of my frames.  They incorporated it into the wax as it should be with no problems.

 

anything