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Author Topic: This is the problem  (Read 5056 times)
Vibe
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« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2009, 06:58:16 AM »


From a biological stand point you are correct, from a legal stand point you are wrong.  During, or after, the Civil War Corporations were empowered as people so as to be taxed.  It had much to do with the Carpet Baggers raping the Southern States.
Actually even from a legal standpoint there is a marked difference - Corps are seen as BETTER than mere "people". They are granted more power to their "Rights" (what ever Corporate Rights are..I thought that this was a country of the PEOPLE, by the PEOPLE, for the PEOPLE - I've never seen a Corporate BOR in the Constitution)
Corporate "property rights" trump the property rights of the individual everyday. Corporations are not hampered by the NFA like individuals are. There are a great many inequities that Corporate entities lord over mere individuals.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2009, 10:52:42 AM »

No, Brian, I am not wrong, I realize where the standing came from, I object to it.  It was a good idea before, it's outlived it usefulness.  Now all it does is create wealthy monsters that are very difficult to fight, they exert undue influence on the idiots in Washington; they need to be knocked down quite a few pegs.
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John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2009, 10:53:58 AM »

No, Brian, I am not wrong, I realize where the standing came from, I object to it.  It was a good idea before, it's outlived it usefulness.  Now all it does is create wealthy monsters that are very difficult to fight, they exert undue influence on the idiots in Washington; they need to be knocked down quite a few pegs.

Are we talking about Unions now?
 cool
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"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams.

kathyp
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« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2009, 11:32:31 AM »

Quote
Are we talking about Unions now?

 evil


Quote
Now all it does is create wealthy monsters that are very difficult to fight

how would you fix it?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2009, 01:12:19 PM »

Quote
Are we talking about Unions now?

 evil
More words inserted that weren't uttered.


Quote
Now all it does is create wealthy monsters that are very difficult to fight

Quote
how would you fix it?
Gee, Kathy, if I knew how to fix it I'd be Queen, now, wouldn't I?  You think it's ok that undue financial interests rule Washington?  I don't.  That's not what is supposed to be running our government.  But they are.  You know the corruption in Washington is rampant.  All over money and power.  It isn't about the good of the country anymore, it's about the good of their pockets and their careers.  So you can cynically say 'How would you fix it' and then sit there and shoot down any ideas, or you can stop saying that's just the way it is, giving them permission to continue the way they're continuing, as if it's ok, and start to fight them, the way I and many others do, but refusing to think it's ok.  It's a small little thing to do, I know, and I know I'm powerless against them, but I still won't give them my permission to ruin our country with their antics.  I'm having a hard time thinking today, no food makes me that way, and I can't come up with what I'm really trying to say.  Mental confusion comes with starvation.

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John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2009, 01:17:35 PM »

Quote
Are we talking about Unions now?

 evil
More words inserted that weren't uttered.

...Mental confusion comes with starvation.


Sometimes no response can improve...
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"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams.

kathyp
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« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2009, 02:22:21 PM »

now who is inserting things?  how can i shoot down an idea that has not been expressed.

i don't have a solution.  corruption is a result of moral failure.  we are human, and we fail.  we will see more moral failure as relativism becomes more the norm

i suspect the first corruption took place in a cave where a cave man made a deal for more of the communal kill, in exchange for a night with his woman.

i have a bigger concern:  when there are more voting receivers than producers, we will all suffer.  corruption among the business community may be solved when the welfare community is in charge.  they will simply destroy the corporations. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2009, 02:36:35 PM »

  corruption among the business community may be solved when the welfare community is in charge.  they will simply destroy the corporations country. 

FTFY
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"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams.

kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2009, 03:09:09 PM »

thanks  grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2009, 03:26:39 PM »

thanks  grin

Any time. I always try to help...
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"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams.

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« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2009, 01:32:49 AM »

Never thought of myself as evil having been in upper management of a corperation but if you guys say so lol.  I did put up some pretty impressive profit numbers though while the gravy train was running strong.
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Vibe
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« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2009, 09:51:26 AM »

Never thought of myself as evil having been in upper management of a corporation but if you guys say so lol.  I did put up some pretty impressive profit numbers though while the gravy train was running strong.
Evil? Depends on how well you respected the Rights of the people you were in fact "Governing" (IE the lower employees). IF you respected their rights as equal to those of your own AND the Corp..then no, I wouldn't look at it as having been evil. Possibly just darned unusual though.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2009, 10:41:35 AM »

Possibly just darned unusual though.
Ain't that the truth?
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2009, 12:53:19 PM »


 the first corruption took place in a cave where a cave man made a deal for more of the communal kill, in exchange for a night with his woman.


Wow!  I bet you resented him for months!! lau lau

(sorry, no offense intended, I just couldn't pass that one up banana devil)
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Rick
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« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2009, 01:00:04 PM »

i'm old, but not that old!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2009, 01:09:05 PM »

they buried the evidence. This is a prime example of sociopathy in leadership: they knew that asbestos exposure for even a few years was a guaranteed kill. (also the kind of reckless management that earned the 'evil corporation' label.)


That's funny ironic, because it led to other kinds of abuse: thousands of people lodging bogus complaints because of asbestos for millions of dollars AGAINST the corporations!

Its easy to bash a corporation because it is a "soulless" entity and not personal.  And yet...a corporation is ONLY a collection of people in a business!  A corporation without people is...well, and empty building, an address, a bank account.  A corporation can only do bad because people do bad, and I suppose it is easier to do bad when you do it vicariously.  And it is easier to wield power when in a group.

(and the government is basically just a corporation with a different structure and purpose)

So taxing a corporation is just taxing people.  Bad people are going to do bad things no matter where they are, in a corporation, in a government, in science, etc.  Corporations need something to limit them as well as in government.
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Rick
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« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2009, 02:39:57 PM »

Corporations need something to limit them as well as in government.
Truer words...
But instead, the opposite has been done, Corporations have "Rights" above and beyond those of the individuals that make them up.
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« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2009, 04:28:05 PM »

Corporations need something to limit them as well as in government.
Truer words...
But instead, the opposite has been done, Corporations have "Rights" above and beyond those of the individuals that make them up.

Maybe I didn't read everything, but it does make sense that a collection of people trumps a single person (within reason), that is what our government is built on.  The government has rights above the corporation and is abused just as badly as the corporation structure.

But now I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing so I'll bid you a pleasant evening!! Smiley
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Rick
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« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2009, 05:21:01 PM »

Corporations need something to limit them as well as in government.
Truer words...
But instead, the opposite has been done, Corporations have "Rights" above and beyond those of the individuals that make them up.

Maybe I didn't read everything, but it does make sense that a collection of people trumps a single person (within reason), that is what our government is built on.  The government has rights above the corporation and is abused just as badly as the corporation structure.

But now I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing so I'll bid you a pleasant evening!! Smiley
Our government is built on - corporations?  I don't think so.  It's built on people.  Of the people, by the people - oh, nevermind, you've obviously all given up on it.  Sad, that.
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Vibe
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« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2009, 11:26:56 PM »

Corporations need something to limit them as well as in government.
Truer words...
But instead, the opposite has been done, Corporations have "Rights" above and beyond those of the individuals that make them up.

Maybe I didn't read everything, but it does make sense that a collection of people trumps a single person (within reason), that is what our government is built on. 
Looks like the "part you missed" was just the Constitution itself that holds differently. It is the rights of the individual that is protected from the might of the larger group.
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The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject.
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