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Author Topic: This is the problem  (Read 5080 times)
Keith13
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« on: December 04, 2009, 09:02:41 AM »

This is the problem with Americans. I pulled this letter from a recent letter to the editor in the local rag. People have no idea of what is being rammed down our throats. This lady is willing to trade higher premiums for a health care reform bill that will tax her out of business. So she will end up homeless and broke but have healthcare until the rest of America goes broke

Keith

I was pleased to see the debate over health care is to continue through full debate on the Senate floor. Health-care reform can’t come soon enough for small businesses like mine.

The facts are pretty brutal: “Small business owners and their employees account for the largest share of the uninsured population — an estimated 27 million of the 47 million Americans without health care.” (Center for American Progress, Oct. 30, 2008)

If true small businesses like ours are the backbone of the economy, we’re getting our backs broken by rising health-care costs.

We offer a group policy, but rates have gone up so much for a small business like ours (we currently have four employees) that none of our workers can afford insurance.

My husband and I are struggling in this economic downturn to pay our premiums. This is due to rising costs in the past two consecutive years, along with a rise in the deductible.

Something needs to be done. There are several things that really need to be fixed.

We’ve got to put an end to pre-existing condition clauses — it’s just not right that insurance companies can deny coverage or game the system to push people out after they get sick.

Health care needs to be portable, too.

And I’d like to see more choices on the table, so small businesses could band together to share responsibility. This could save jobs and increase affordability.

The solutions are within reach, the House already has passed a good reform bill, and with strong leadership in the Senate, we have an opportunity to enact reform that will finally solve this problem for small businesses like ours.

With health-care costs continuing to skyrocket with no end in sight, we can’t afford to wait another year for health care-reform.

Now is the time.

Mary Black
small-business owner
Baton Rouge

http://www.2theadvocate.com/opinion/78487407.html
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2009, 09:33:30 AM »

depending on how this looks when it passes, it might be a short term benefit for her. it would probably be cheaper for her to push her people off onto the public option and she could just pay the fine for not covering them.  this is the desired effect.  that's why the fine is so low in comparison to many insurance policies.

small businesses get the shaft when they are buying insurance.  what they don't realize is that the senate bill will require them to buy GOVERNMENT APPROVED policies for their companies.  they are not going to be better off unless they are willing to be fined and carry  no insurance.

i bet a couple of us could sit down a fix the few things wrong with the way we are covered and do it in fewer than 10 pages.  we started a whole country with just a couple of pages, and that worked pretty well. 

even the EU constitution....er, treaty, isn't this long and convoluted.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2009, 10:43:19 PM »

Of course we could just get rid of health insurance entirely.  Remember, their primary interest is to squeeze a profit from you, it's not to protect your health.

SH.
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mick
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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2009, 03:38:00 AM »

The Country that has given the world many of the amazing medical breakthroughs in my lifetime, its Government OWES the People the right to affordable health care.

Doctors one became doctors to heal the sick, now they become doctors to get rich before anything else. Then they buy a few nursing homes and make more money. Spend half the time referring patients to their mates for expensive unnecessary tests. Then there are the kickbacks from drug companies.

Profit making Hospitals should be banned. Hospitals should look to cover costs and run as non profit organisations. At present, many channel off revenue into research instead of it staying in immediate health care. whos making all the money, where does it go?

It costs more to stay in a ordinary hospital ward than it does to stay in the best hotel for a night with a private nurse.

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John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2009, 09:07:34 AM »

The Country that has given the world many of the amazing medical breakthroughs in my lifetime, its Government OWES the People the right to affordable health care.

The "Country" hasn't given the world diddly. People have. Corporations (who are people) have. Part of their motivation is "evil" profits. Take the opportunity for profit away and then come back and see me in 20 years. (hint: it'll look like healthcare in the USSR in the 1970s).

The "Government" is in large part responsible for the issues in healthcare that you identified in the balance of your post.
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kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2009, 10:36:05 AM »

  ah mick, you are funny.  we all should just work from the goodness our our heart.  we could share all that we produce and have, sing happy songs, and raise naked and happy children.

oh wait.  it's been done.  didn't work.  bummer.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2009, 10:54:50 AM »

  ah mick, you are funny.  we all should just work from the goodness our our heart.  we could share all that we produce and have, sing happy songs, and raise naked and happy children.

oh wait.  it's been done.  didn't work.  bummer.

LOl. Well said.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2009, 02:14:16 PM »

The Country that has given the world many of the amazing medical breakthroughs in my lifetime, its Government OWES the People the right to affordable health care.

The "Country" hasn't given the world diddly. People have. Corporations (who are people) have. Part of their motivation is "evil" profits. Take the opportunity for profit away and then come back and see me in 20 years. (hint: it'll look like healthcare in the USSR in the 1970s).

The "Government" is in large part responsible for the issues in healthcare that you identified in the balance of your post.
One correction - corporations are not 'people'.  Regular people cannot compare in influence with corporations.  The fact that corporations are now protected as though they are people has contributed to the economic mess we're in.  Of the People, by the People and For the People doesn't translate well when it's actually Of the Corporation, by the Corporation and for the Corporation.

I agree with the rest of your point.
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John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2009, 02:18:39 PM »

The Country that has given the world many of the amazing medical breakthroughs in my lifetime, its Government OWES the People the right to affordable health care.

The "Country" hasn't given the world diddly. People have. Corporations (who are people) have. Part of their motivation is "evil" profits. Take the opportunity for profit away and then come back and see me in 20 years. (hint: it'll look like healthcare in the USSR in the 1970s).

The "Government" is in large part responsible for the issues in healthcare that you identified in the balance of your post.
One correction - corporations are not 'people'.  Regular people cannot compare in influence with corporations.  The fact that corporations are now protected as though they are people has contributed to the economic mess we're in.  Of the People, by the People and For the People doesn't translate well when it's actually Of the Corporation, by the Corporation and for the Corporation.


We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Corporations are made of people. A corporation cannot exist without at least one person creating it. Nothing that a corporation does, good or bad, happens without people.
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2009, 02:50:20 PM »

many corporations are small and family businesses.  there are tax advantages to some for incorporating.  to lump them all into one evil category is wrong.  the biggest problem with most large corporate structure is labor, not management.  management of large corporations only gets away with what share holders allow.  if share holders don't have sense enough to vote and keep track of things, they pretty much get what they deserve.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2009, 03:01:24 PM »

Doesn't change the fact that corporations are not people.  I'm not talking about mom and pop.   I'm not against business, but I am against the undue influence business has over our laws, our politicians, and our economy.  What's good for the small mom and pop corporate entities out there means nothing to the mega-conglomerates, they'll steam-roll over them the way they steam-roll over everything else.  Clean up the fast-eddy accounting practices and bring ethics back into business and I'll think more favorably to what was once great American business.

P.S. Putting words into my mouth is a tactic I expect from liberals, not from fellow conservatives.   
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kathyp
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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2009, 03:46:40 PM »

Quote
Putting words into my mouth is a tactic I expect from liberals, not from fellow conservatives.   


didn't know i did that.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2009, 03:48:22 PM »

Doesn't change the fact that corporations are not people.  

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Bee Happy
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« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2009, 07:12:07 PM »

I can't entirely discredit the liberal posture that "corporations are evil" ; only recently have a handful of corporations begun to issue psyche profiles to executives to find and root out sociopathy in leadership. It's a fine line between hard nosed practical business conduct and an absolute lack of conscience; a line that should never ever be crossed.
forgive me for forgetting the specific example, but there have been cases where companies consider the profitability of a product against the laibilities for the damage it causes.
an old example is asbestos - companies contiuned producing and selling it knowing how dangerous it is. willful negiligence is a case of deliberately producing a hazard while knowing how hazardous it is.

as to socialized medicine - Canada has a pretty decent system (in spite of examples to the contrary; and their tax rate isn't as grossly unreasonable as it would seem) problem is we have a government which can't manage anything and instead pits us idealogically against one another to limit practical approaches to just about anything.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2009, 07:48:40 PM »

I can't entirely discredit the liberal posture that "corporations are evil" ; only recently have a handful of corporations begun to issue psyche profiles to executives to find and root out sociopathy in leadership. It's a fine line between hard nosed practical business conduct and an absolute lack of conscience; a line that should never ever be crossed.
forgive me for forgetting the specific example, but there have been cases where companies consider the profitability of a product against the laibilities for the damage it causes.
an old example is asbestos - companies contiuned producing and selling it knowing how dangerous it is. willful negiligence is a case of deliberately producing a hazard while knowing how hazardous it is.

Thank you, you've summed it up nicely.  I was a business manager for 25 years, I am not clueless with regards to businesses, corporations, taxes, accounting, etc. ad nauseum.  The lack of ethic demonstrated currently, over and over, amazes me.  The fact that it seems to be pretty standard procedure sets my teeth right on edge.  Acceptance of those lousy practices sends me right over the edge.

Quote
as to socialized medicine - Canada has a pretty decent system (in spite of examples to the contrary; and their tax rate isn't as grossly unreasonable as it would seem) problem is we have a government which can't manage anything and instead pits us idealogically against one another to limit practical approaches to just about anything.
That lack of ethics mentioned above will carry right over into any system these gimokes come up with.  Not that socialized medicine is at all a good idea, it's just made even worse at the thought of it being implemented in today's business climate.
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« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2009, 08:00:39 PM »

Quote
an old example is asbestos - companies continued producing and selling it knowing how dangerous it is. willful negligence is a case of deliberately producing a hazard while knowing how hazardous it is.

on the other hand, it was a very effective product.  i have heard engineers say that if the WTC asbestos protection had been finished, the WTC towers probably would not have come down.  true?  i don't know.

in all things we balance risk against benefit.  it's not that evaluation that needs to be questioned, it's the motive for the final decision.

there are evil people everywhere.  there are evil people in corporations.  i just can't buy the blanket condemnation of corporate america that is put forth by some.  after all...a lot of us work for those corporations, so if nothing else, they provided employment.  a lot of us are invested in those corporations and they provide dividends.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2009, 08:15:00 PM »

I went from running a small corporation to working for a mega-corporation - I will refer to them as The Borg.  It was awful.  The manipulations I saw on all levels of many projects was appalling.  Watching project management in action in a major EPC entity was eyeopening.  Realizing that this was standard procedure throughout the EPC industry was disheartening, EPC is how many large facilities are built, like power plants, refineries, chemical production facilities, I could go on and on.  Being able to now filter business news realizing what those terms meant has colored my views of American, no, global business practices.  Kathy, I'm sure not all corporate America is corrupt, but I think a large portion of it is.  So what, we are employed by them?  That somehow excuses lousy business practices?  I don't think so.  That's sort of saying 'everyone does it' to your parents - what would their reaction be?  Ethics are simple, there's really no way to deviate from them without becoming corrupt.  That corruption permeates the whole business world in one form or another.  It has to go, but I'm afraid it's too ingrained now - which will ultimately lead to even more corruption.  Not a good direction to be headed in.
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« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2009, 08:18:52 PM »

corruption permeates everything.  much of our society is amoral and corrupt.  a corrupt business should be no surprise.  it is unfortunate, but i don't see it improving.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2009, 09:12:21 PM »

Quote
an old example is asbestos - companies continued producing and selling it knowing how dangerous it is. willful negligence is a case of deliberately producing a hazard while knowing how hazardous it is.

on the other hand, it was a very effective product.  i have heard engineers say that if the WTC asbestos protection had been finished, the WTC towers probably would not have come down.  true?  i don't know.

in all things we balance risk against benefit.  it's not that evaluation that needs to be questioned, it's the motive for the final decision.

there are evil people everywhere.  there are evil people in corporations.  i just can't buy the blanket condemnation of corporate america that is put forth by some.  after all...a lot of us work for those corporations, so if nothing else, they provided employment.  a lot of us are invested in those corporations and they provide dividends.

asbestos stratifies almost inifnitely, meaning that when it breaks down it turns into smaller and smaller strings - it was killing herds of miners and tradeworkers - it was well beyond the level of 'too dangerous to bother with' - when the companies learned that asbestos turns to a network of inflexible strings inside the lungs - they buried the evidence. This is a prime example of sociopathy in leadership: they knew that asbestos exposure for even a few years was a guaranteed kill. (also the kind of reckless management that earned the 'evil corporation' label.)
We have nomex now which may be more expensive to produce, but costs change, chemists improve production and products. Asbestos is bad news (it would be significantly less cost effective and probably pricier than nomex if proper safety procedures were observed for it.)
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« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2009, 11:39:54 PM »

Doesn't change the fact that corporations are not people.  I'm not talking about mom and pop.   I'm not against business, but I am against the undue influence business has over our laws, our politicians, and our economy.  What's good for the small mom and pop corporate entities out there means nothing to the mega-conglomerates, they'll steam-roll over them the way they steam-roll over everything else.  Clean up the fast-eddy accounting practices and bring ethics back into business and I'll think more favorably to what was once great American business.

P.S. Putting words into my mouth is a tactic I expect from liberals, not from fellow conservatives.   

From a biological stand point you are correct, from a legal stand point you are wrong.  During, or after, the Civil War Corporations were empowered as people so as to be taxed.  It had much to do with the Carpet Baggers raping the Southern States.
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« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2009, 06:58:16 AM »


From a biological stand point you are correct, from a legal stand point you are wrong.  During, or after, the Civil War Corporations were empowered as people so as to be taxed.  It had much to do with the Carpet Baggers raping the Southern States.
Actually even from a legal standpoint there is a marked difference - Corps are seen as BETTER than mere "people". They are granted more power to their "Rights" (what ever Corporate Rights are..I thought that this was a country of the PEOPLE, by the PEOPLE, for the PEOPLE - I've never seen a Corporate BOR in the Constitution)
Corporate "property rights" trump the property rights of the individual everyday. Corporations are not hampered by the NFA like individuals are. There are a great many inequities that Corporate entities lord over mere individuals.
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« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2009, 10:52:42 AM »

No, Brian, I am not wrong, I realize where the standing came from, I object to it.  It was a good idea before, it's outlived it usefulness.  Now all it does is create wealthy monsters that are very difficult to fight, they exert undue influence on the idiots in Washington; they need to be knocked down quite a few pegs.
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« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2009, 10:53:58 AM »

No, Brian, I am not wrong, I realize where the standing came from, I object to it.  It was a good idea before, it's outlived it usefulness.  Now all it does is create wealthy monsters that are very difficult to fight, they exert undue influence on the idiots in Washington; they need to be knocked down quite a few pegs.

Are we talking about Unions now?
 cool
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« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2009, 11:32:31 AM »

Quote
Are we talking about Unions now?

 evil


Quote
Now all it does is create wealthy monsters that are very difficult to fight

how would you fix it?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2009, 01:12:19 PM »

Quote
Are we talking about Unions now?

 evil
More words inserted that weren't uttered.


Quote
Now all it does is create wealthy monsters that are very difficult to fight

Quote
how would you fix it?
Gee, Kathy, if I knew how to fix it I'd be Queen, now, wouldn't I?  You think it's ok that undue financial interests rule Washington?  I don't.  That's not what is supposed to be running our government.  But they are.  You know the corruption in Washington is rampant.  All over money and power.  It isn't about the good of the country anymore, it's about the good of their pockets and their careers.  So you can cynically say 'How would you fix it' and then sit there and shoot down any ideas, or you can stop saying that's just the way it is, giving them permission to continue the way they're continuing, as if it's ok, and start to fight them, the way I and many others do, but refusing to think it's ok.  It's a small little thing to do, I know, and I know I'm powerless against them, but I still won't give them my permission to ruin our country with their antics.  I'm having a hard time thinking today, no food makes me that way, and I can't come up with what I'm really trying to say.  Mental confusion comes with starvation.

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« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2009, 01:17:35 PM »

Quote
Are we talking about Unions now?

 evil
More words inserted that weren't uttered.

...Mental confusion comes with starvation.


Sometimes no response can improve...
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« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2009, 02:22:21 PM »

now who is inserting things?  how can i shoot down an idea that has not been expressed.

i don't have a solution.  corruption is a result of moral failure.  we are human, and we fail.  we will see more moral failure as relativism becomes more the norm

i suspect the first corruption took place in a cave where a cave man made a deal for more of the communal kill, in exchange for a night with his woman.

i have a bigger concern:  when there are more voting receivers than producers, we will all suffer.  corruption among the business community may be solved when the welfare community is in charge.  they will simply destroy the corporations. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2009, 02:36:35 PM »

  corruption among the business community may be solved when the welfare community is in charge.  they will simply destroy the corporations country. 

FTFY
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« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2009, 03:09:09 PM »

thanks  grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2009, 03:26:39 PM »

thanks  grin

Any time. I always try to help...
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« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2009, 01:32:49 AM »

Never thought of myself as evil having been in upper management of a corperation but if you guys say so lol.  I did put up some pretty impressive profit numbers though while the gravy train was running strong.
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« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2009, 09:51:26 AM »

Never thought of myself as evil having been in upper management of a corporation but if you guys say so lol.  I did put up some pretty impressive profit numbers though while the gravy train was running strong.
Evil? Depends on how well you respected the Rights of the people you were in fact "Governing" (IE the lower employees). IF you respected their rights as equal to those of your own AND the Corp..then no, I wouldn't look at it as having been evil. Possibly just darned unusual though.
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« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2009, 10:41:35 AM »

Possibly just darned unusual though.
Ain't that the truth?
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« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2009, 12:53:19 PM »


 the first corruption took place in a cave where a cave man made a deal for more of the communal kill, in exchange for a night with his woman.


Wow!  I bet you resented him for months!! lau lau

(sorry, no offense intended, I just couldn't pass that one up banana devil)
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« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2009, 01:00:04 PM »

i'm old, but not that old!
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« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2009, 01:09:05 PM »

they buried the evidence. This is a prime example of sociopathy in leadership: they knew that asbestos exposure for even a few years was a guaranteed kill. (also the kind of reckless management that earned the 'evil corporation' label.)


That's funny ironic, because it led to other kinds of abuse: thousands of people lodging bogus complaints because of asbestos for millions of dollars AGAINST the corporations!

Its easy to bash a corporation because it is a "soulless" entity and not personal.  And yet...a corporation is ONLY a collection of people in a business!  A corporation without people is...well, and empty building, an address, a bank account.  A corporation can only do bad because people do bad, and I suppose it is easier to do bad when you do it vicariously.  And it is easier to wield power when in a group.

(and the government is basically just a corporation with a different structure and purpose)

So taxing a corporation is just taxing people.  Bad people are going to do bad things no matter where they are, in a corporation, in a government, in science, etc.  Corporations need something to limit them as well as in government.
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« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2009, 02:39:57 PM »

Corporations need something to limit them as well as in government.
Truer words...
But instead, the opposite has been done, Corporations have "Rights" above and beyond those of the individuals that make them up.
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« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2009, 04:28:05 PM »

Corporations need something to limit them as well as in government.
Truer words...
But instead, the opposite has been done, Corporations have "Rights" above and beyond those of the individuals that make them up.

Maybe I didn't read everything, but it does make sense that a collection of people trumps a single person (within reason), that is what our government is built on.  The government has rights above the corporation and is abused just as badly as the corporation structure.

But now I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing so I'll bid you a pleasant evening!! Smiley
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« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2009, 05:21:01 PM »

Corporations need something to limit them as well as in government.
Truer words...
But instead, the opposite has been done, Corporations have "Rights" above and beyond those of the individuals that make them up.

Maybe I didn't read everything, but it does make sense that a collection of people trumps a single person (within reason), that is what our government is built on.  The government has rights above the corporation and is abused just as badly as the corporation structure.

But now I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing so I'll bid you a pleasant evening!! Smiley
Our government is built on - corporations?  I don't think so.  It's built on people.  Of the people, by the people - oh, nevermind, you've obviously all given up on it.  Sad, that.
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« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2009, 11:26:56 PM »

Corporations need something to limit them as well as in government.
Truer words...
But instead, the opposite has been done, Corporations have "Rights" above and beyond those of the individuals that make them up.

Maybe I didn't read everything, but it does make sense that a collection of people trumps a single person (within reason), that is what our government is built on. 
Looks like the "part you missed" was just the Constitution itself that holds differently. It is the rights of the individual that is protected from the might of the larger group.
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« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2009, 11:44:16 PM »

they buried the evidence. This is a prime example of sociopathy in leadership: they knew that asbestos exposure for even a few years was a guaranteed kill. (also the kind of reckless management that earned the 'evil corporation' label.)


That's funny ironic, because it led to other kinds of abuse: thousands of people lodging bogus complaints because of asbestos for millions of dollars AGAINST the corporations!  [etc.]



Asbestosis and mesothelioma are real medical conditions; the latter being a form of malignant cancer. They have only one known cause - the mineral asbestos. I agree that it takes a person who lacks a conscience to order the destruction or concealment of evidence that they continued to allow personnel to be exposed to their hazardous product; bogus complaints are lodged by people who think they found a gravy train to ride, (A good lung image culls them pretty easily) real asbestos victims exist. (I say victims because it was, after all, someone's conscious decision not to advise them of the danger it presented). I have absolutely no pity for the consequences a real person or corporate entity has to endure for the willful endangerment of other human beings without appropriate safety precautions or informed consent - no pity at all.
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« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2009, 07:31:46 AM »

Corporations need something to limit them as well as in government.
Truer words...
But instead, the opposite has been done, Corporations have "Rights" above and beyond those of the individuals that make them up.

Maybe I didn't read everything, but it does make sense that a collection of people trumps a single person (within reason), that is what our government is built on. 
Looks like the "part you missed" was just the Constitution itself that holds differently. It is the rights of the individual that is protected from the might of the larger group.
Now, Vibe, why are you trotting out that old, dirty piece of paper?  Who cares anymore?  It's all about money, has nothing to do with The Constitution.  rolleyes
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« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2009, 12:51:43 PM »


Looks like the "part you missed" was just the Constitution itself that holds differently. It is the rights of the individual that is protected from the might of the larger group.

Did I?  I voted against the tax increase, the millage, etc, but I still have to pay it.  I voted against our fine new president, but will still suffer the consequences of the larger group voting for him.

That there constitution wouldn't help me at the board meeting when I try to explain why I'm not paying my increased taxes... shocked
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« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2009, 03:30:56 PM »

Hi everyone who has commented on corporations:  I guess I am one, and only time will tell if i ever get the opportunity to "lord it over anyone", much less do so.

     Here is my story; Remember when Warren Buffett gave Bill Gates a billion to "improve the world"?  I immediately contacted the Gates foundation and explained that I had stumbled on a solution to the century old problem which prevented the liquefaction and later evaporation of ordinary air as a portable source of energy.  The reply I received was that they only gave money to not-for-profit corporations for  promotion of the public good.

     Fair enough, I thought, and set about incorporating.  The State was easy and quick, but the Feds drug their feet for most of two years before deciding that I was both worthy and qualified.  By the time I tried to reapply to the Gates foundation, I discovered that they had no applicable category which applied to our project, and that the only remaining cause they were funding was programs to quit smoking.  In the meantime, all the other funding sources had categorized their requests and had of course never heard of cryogenic energy storage, and had no desire to.  I even tried Al Gore, but he seemed to miss the point and regularly sends me letters requesting money.

     My current plan is to scrape up enough funds to build a prototype,and am writing a book on the advantages of this way of doing things.  Hopefully I could use it as a key to get on talk shows and attract either funding or a partner.

     The State of Indiana had a program to fund start-up businesses, but required a "complete thermodynamic analysis" as a prerequisite to getting funding for such things as "complete thermodynamic analysis"  This frightened the universities I contacted, and as they had no existing departments of cryogenic energy storage, they apparently passed the request around until it was forgotten about.

     By the time I had collected what I considered sufficient "proof of concept", the program got phased out, and passed over to the various branches of the SBA which won't deal with "not for profit entities".

     There should be an occasional progress report on the DARLAP website if anyone is curious.

ayyon2157

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« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2009, 04:56:16 PM »

I think that my point is that corporations and (at least our) government are really similar things.  Entities consisting of people created to serve a bunch of people.  Somewhat different purposes, but both exist to provide benefits.  Both can be and are abused.  Both need checks and balances.  Corporations have been and are out of control in some cases, and it sure seems like the government has been and is spiralling out of control as well.  I could but won't bother giving any examples like the EPA... rolleyes
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« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2009, 08:30:07 PM »

this is becoming like a conversation about firearms - it depends solely on whose hands they're in.
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« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2009, 03:19:11 PM »

this is becoming like a conversation about firearms - it depends solely on whose hands they're in.

It's more about a lack or morality.  When a corporation puts profit above all other considerations, whether at the direction of their stock holders or by management or both, morality has been vanquished.  The same goes for government, when self-interest (staying in office or social programs like Social Seccurity) trumps public good, then morality goes by the way side. 
It is not unconstitutional to teach religion in our schools, it is unconstitutional for religion and government to join together to as an overseer of the public.  Unfortunately the courts have decided to ignore the writings of our founding fathers on this subject and had decided that government, at any level, can't even mention the word religion.  Without some form of morality, which religion provides, taught in our schools our nation is quickly becoming a land of inmorality, as without morality to form self-restraint, there is no consciense, collective or otherwise, to answer to.

Both Corporations and Governments have gotten into the mentality that they are a better purveyor of the public welfare than the individual, the corporations through economic factors, such as stock dividends, products, and employment; while the government approaches it through socialistic programs for the benefit of all at the expense of the individual's rights.  As such we see both joining in lock step to suppress the people's will in order to better provide their concepts of public good.
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