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Author Topic: This is the problem  (Read 4903 times)
Keith13
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« on: December 04, 2009, 09:02:41 AM »

This is the problem with Americans. I pulled this letter from a recent letter to the editor in the local rag. People have no idea of what is being rammed down our throats. This lady is willing to trade higher premiums for a health care reform bill that will tax her out of business. So she will end up homeless and broke but have healthcare until the rest of America goes broke

Keith

I was pleased to see the debate over health care is to continue through full debate on the Senate floor. Health-care reform can’t come soon enough for small businesses like mine.

The facts are pretty brutal: “Small business owners and their employees account for the largest share of the uninsured population — an estimated 27 million of the 47 million Americans without health care.” (Center for American Progress, Oct. 30, 2008)

If true small businesses like ours are the backbone of the economy, we’re getting our backs broken by rising health-care costs.

We offer a group policy, but rates have gone up so much for a small business like ours (we currently have four employees) that none of our workers can afford insurance.

My husband and I are struggling in this economic downturn to pay our premiums. This is due to rising costs in the past two consecutive years, along with a rise in the deductible.

Something needs to be done. There are several things that really need to be fixed.

We’ve got to put an end to pre-existing condition clauses — it’s just not right that insurance companies can deny coverage or game the system to push people out after they get sick.

Health care needs to be portable, too.

And I’d like to see more choices on the table, so small businesses could band together to share responsibility. This could save jobs and increase affordability.

The solutions are within reach, the House already has passed a good reform bill, and with strong leadership in the Senate, we have an opportunity to enact reform that will finally solve this problem for small businesses like ours.

With health-care costs continuing to skyrocket with no end in sight, we can’t afford to wait another year for health care-reform.

Now is the time.

Mary Black
small-business owner
Baton Rouge

http://www.2theadvocate.com/opinion/78487407.html
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2009, 09:33:30 AM »

depending on how this looks when it passes, it might be a short term benefit for her. it would probably be cheaper for her to push her people off onto the public option and she could just pay the fine for not covering them.  this is the desired effect.  that's why the fine is so low in comparison to many insurance policies.

small businesses get the shaft when they are buying insurance.  what they don't realize is that the senate bill will require them to buy GOVERNMENT APPROVED policies for their companies.  they are not going to be better off unless they are willing to be fined and carry  no insurance.

i bet a couple of us could sit down a fix the few things wrong with the way we are covered and do it in fewer than 10 pages.  we started a whole country with just a couple of pages, and that worked pretty well. 

even the EU constitution....er, treaty, isn't this long and convoluted.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2009, 10:43:19 PM »

Of course we could just get rid of health insurance entirely.  Remember, their primary interest is to squeeze a profit from you, it's not to protect your health.

SH.
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mick
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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2009, 03:38:00 AM »

The Country that has given the world many of the amazing medical breakthroughs in my lifetime, its Government OWES the People the right to affordable health care.

Doctors one became doctors to heal the sick, now they become doctors to get rich before anything else. Then they buy a few nursing homes and make more money. Spend half the time referring patients to their mates for expensive unnecessary tests. Then there are the kickbacks from drug companies.

Profit making Hospitals should be banned. Hospitals should look to cover costs and run as non profit organisations. At present, many channel off revenue into research instead of it staying in immediate health care. whos making all the money, where does it go?

It costs more to stay in a ordinary hospital ward than it does to stay in the best hotel for a night with a private nurse.

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John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2009, 09:07:34 AM »

The Country that has given the world many of the amazing medical breakthroughs in my lifetime, its Government OWES the People the right to affordable health care.

The "Country" hasn't given the world diddly. People have. Corporations (who are people) have. Part of their motivation is "evil" profits. Take the opportunity for profit away and then come back and see me in 20 years. (hint: it'll look like healthcare in the USSR in the 1970s).

The "Government" is in large part responsible for the issues in healthcare that you identified in the balance of your post.
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kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2009, 10:36:05 AM »

  ah mick, you are funny.  we all should just work from the goodness our our heart.  we could share all that we produce and have, sing happy songs, and raise naked and happy children.

oh wait.  it's been done.  didn't work.  bummer.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2009, 10:54:50 AM »

  ah mick, you are funny.  we all should just work from the goodness our our heart.  we could share all that we produce and have, sing happy songs, and raise naked and happy children.

oh wait.  it's been done.  didn't work.  bummer.

LOl. Well said.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2009, 02:14:16 PM »

The Country that has given the world many of the amazing medical breakthroughs in my lifetime, its Government OWES the People the right to affordable health care.

The "Country" hasn't given the world diddly. People have. Corporations (who are people) have. Part of their motivation is "evil" profits. Take the opportunity for profit away and then come back and see me in 20 years. (hint: it'll look like healthcare in the USSR in the 1970s).

The "Government" is in large part responsible for the issues in healthcare that you identified in the balance of your post.
One correction - corporations are not 'people'.  Regular people cannot compare in influence with corporations.  The fact that corporations are now protected as though they are people has contributed to the economic mess we're in.  Of the People, by the People and For the People doesn't translate well when it's actually Of the Corporation, by the Corporation and for the Corporation.

I agree with the rest of your point.
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John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2009, 02:18:39 PM »

The Country that has given the world many of the amazing medical breakthroughs in my lifetime, its Government OWES the People the right to affordable health care.

The "Country" hasn't given the world diddly. People have. Corporations (who are people) have. Part of their motivation is "evil" profits. Take the opportunity for profit away and then come back and see me in 20 years. (hint: it'll look like healthcare in the USSR in the 1970s).

The "Government" is in large part responsible for the issues in healthcare that you identified in the balance of your post.
One correction - corporations are not 'people'.  Regular people cannot compare in influence with corporations.  The fact that corporations are now protected as though they are people has contributed to the economic mess we're in.  Of the People, by the People and For the People doesn't translate well when it's actually Of the Corporation, by the Corporation and for the Corporation.


We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Corporations are made of people. A corporation cannot exist without at least one person creating it. Nothing that a corporation does, good or bad, happens without people.
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"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams.

kathyp
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2009, 02:50:20 PM »

many corporations are small and family businesses.  there are tax advantages to some for incorporating.  to lump them all into one evil category is wrong.  the biggest problem with most large corporate structure is labor, not management.  management of large corporations only gets away with what share holders allow.  if share holders don't have sense enough to vote and keep track of things, they pretty much get what they deserve.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
reinbeau
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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2009, 03:01:24 PM »

Doesn't change the fact that corporations are not people.  I'm not talking about mom and pop.   I'm not against business, but I am against the undue influence business has over our laws, our politicians, and our economy.  What's good for the small mom and pop corporate entities out there means nothing to the mega-conglomerates, they'll steam-roll over them the way they steam-roll over everything else.  Clean up the fast-eddy accounting practices and bring ethics back into business and I'll think more favorably to what was once great American business.

P.S. Putting words into my mouth is a tactic I expect from liberals, not from fellow conservatives.   
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kathyp
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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2009, 03:46:40 PM »

Quote
Putting words into my mouth is a tactic I expect from liberals, not from fellow conservatives.   


didn't know i did that.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
John Lee Pettimore
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« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2009, 03:48:22 PM »

Doesn't change the fact that corporations are not people.  

***shakes head and walks away slowly***
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2009, 07:12:07 PM »

I can't entirely discredit the liberal posture that "corporations are evil" ; only recently have a handful of corporations begun to issue psyche profiles to executives to find and root out sociopathy in leadership. It's a fine line between hard nosed practical business conduct and an absolute lack of conscience; a line that should never ever be crossed.
forgive me for forgetting the specific example, but there have been cases where companies consider the profitability of a product against the laibilities for the damage it causes.
an old example is asbestos - companies contiuned producing and selling it knowing how dangerous it is. willful negiligence is a case of deliberately producing a hazard while knowing how hazardous it is.

as to socialized medicine - Canada has a pretty decent system (in spite of examples to the contrary; and their tax rate isn't as grossly unreasonable as it would seem) problem is we have a government which can't manage anything and instead pits us idealogically against one another to limit practical approaches to just about anything.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2009, 07:48:40 PM »

I can't entirely discredit the liberal posture that "corporations are evil" ; only recently have a handful of corporations begun to issue psyche profiles to executives to find and root out sociopathy in leadership. It's a fine line between hard nosed practical business conduct and an absolute lack of conscience; a line that should never ever be crossed.
forgive me for forgetting the specific example, but there have been cases where companies consider the profitability of a product against the laibilities for the damage it causes.
an old example is asbestos - companies contiuned producing and selling it knowing how dangerous it is. willful negiligence is a case of deliberately producing a hazard while knowing how hazardous it is.

Thank you, you've summed it up nicely.  I was a business manager for 25 years, I am not clueless with regards to businesses, corporations, taxes, accounting, etc. ad nauseum.  The lack of ethic demonstrated currently, over and over, amazes me.  The fact that it seems to be pretty standard procedure sets my teeth right on edge.  Acceptance of those lousy practices sends me right over the edge.

Quote
as to socialized medicine - Canada has a pretty decent system (in spite of examples to the contrary; and their tax rate isn't as grossly unreasonable as it would seem) problem is we have a government which can't manage anything and instead pits us idealogically against one another to limit practical approaches to just about anything.
That lack of ethics mentioned above will carry right over into any system these gimokes come up with.  Not that socialized medicine is at all a good idea, it's just made even worse at the thought of it being implemented in today's business climate.
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kathyp
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« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2009, 08:00:39 PM »

Quote
an old example is asbestos - companies continued producing and selling it knowing how dangerous it is. willful negligence is a case of deliberately producing a hazard while knowing how hazardous it is.

on the other hand, it was a very effective product.  i have heard engineers say that if the WTC asbestos protection had been finished, the WTC towers probably would not have come down.  true?  i don't know.

in all things we balance risk against benefit.  it's not that evaluation that needs to be questioned, it's the motive for the final decision.

there are evil people everywhere.  there are evil people in corporations.  i just can't buy the blanket condemnation of corporate america that is put forth by some.  after all...a lot of us work for those corporations, so if nothing else, they provided employment.  a lot of us are invested in those corporations and they provide dividends.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2009, 08:15:00 PM »

I went from running a small corporation to working for a mega-corporation - I will refer to them as The Borg.  It was awful.  The manipulations I saw on all levels of many projects was appalling.  Watching project management in action in a major EPC entity was eyeopening.  Realizing that this was standard procedure throughout the EPC industry was disheartening, EPC is how many large facilities are built, like power plants, refineries, chemical production facilities, I could go on and on.  Being able to now filter business news realizing what those terms meant has colored my views of American, no, global business practices.  Kathy, I'm sure not all corporate America is corrupt, but I think a large portion of it is.  So what, we are employed by them?  That somehow excuses lousy business practices?  I don't think so.  That's sort of saying 'everyone does it' to your parents - what would their reaction be?  Ethics are simple, there's really no way to deviate from them without becoming corrupt.  That corruption permeates the whole business world in one form or another.  It has to go, but I'm afraid it's too ingrained now - which will ultimately lead to even more corruption.  Not a good direction to be headed in.
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kathyp
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« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2009, 08:18:52 PM »

corruption permeates everything.  much of our society is amoral and corrupt.  a corrupt business should be no surprise.  it is unfortunate, but i don't see it improving.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2009, 09:12:21 PM »

Quote
an old example is asbestos - companies continued producing and selling it knowing how dangerous it is. willful negligence is a case of deliberately producing a hazard while knowing how hazardous it is.

on the other hand, it was a very effective product.  i have heard engineers say that if the WTC asbestos protection had been finished, the WTC towers probably would not have come down.  true?  i don't know.

in all things we balance risk against benefit.  it's not that evaluation that needs to be questioned, it's the motive for the final decision.

there are evil people everywhere.  there are evil people in corporations.  i just can't buy the blanket condemnation of corporate america that is put forth by some.  after all...a lot of us work for those corporations, so if nothing else, they provided employment.  a lot of us are invested in those corporations and they provide dividends.

asbestos stratifies almost inifnitely, meaning that when it breaks down it turns into smaller and smaller strings - it was killing herds of miners and tradeworkers - it was well beyond the level of 'too dangerous to bother with' - when the companies learned that asbestos turns to a network of inflexible strings inside the lungs - they buried the evidence. This is a prime example of sociopathy in leadership: they knew that asbestos exposure for even a few years was a guaranteed kill. (also the kind of reckless management that earned the 'evil corporation' label.)
We have nomex now which may be more expensive to produce, but costs change, chemists improve production and products. Asbestos is bad news (it would be significantly less cost effective and probably pricier than nomex if proper safety procedures were observed for it.)
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2009, 11:39:54 PM »

Doesn't change the fact that corporations are not people.  I'm not talking about mom and pop.   I'm not against business, but I am against the undue influence business has over our laws, our politicians, and our economy.  What's good for the small mom and pop corporate entities out there means nothing to the mega-conglomerates, they'll steam-roll over them the way they steam-roll over everything else.  Clean up the fast-eddy accounting practices and bring ethics back into business and I'll think more favorably to what was once great American business.

P.S. Putting words into my mouth is a tactic I expect from liberals, not from fellow conservatives.   

From a biological stand point you are correct, from a legal stand point you are wrong.  During, or after, the Civil War Corporations were empowered as people so as to be taxed.  It had much to do with the Carpet Baggers raping the Southern States.
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