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Author Topic: Need help from a Philadelphia Beekeeper  (Read 4649 times)
TheMasonicHive
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« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2009, 08:47:02 AM »

I guess I don't see how I could be seen as marginally eccentric either.

The USGBC is strong, and every year independent studies project designers will be embracing LEED more and more as the government (lets face it, we have a "green" White House...for better or for worse) gives building owners tax incentives.

You see a lush rural landscape and you think "This would be a nice place for a hive" but SOON you will see rooftop gardens, and shrubs.

Whats missing here?
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Christopher Peace
Oakland County, MI

"It teaches us that, as we come into the world rational and intelligent beings, so we should ever be industrious ones; never sitting down contented while our fellow-creatures around us are in want, when it is in our power to relieve them without inconvenience to ourselves." - Freemasonry on the Beehive
Joelel
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« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2009, 03:03:46 PM »

Do you really think there is a stinging threat?  Foragers have no interest in humans and would rather run away than sting.

Its the non beekeeping person who is messing around with the hive on the roof that has a problem.

You mentioned about people keeping them "illegally" so the question becomes how do we make it legal or how do you comply with existing laws.

I think you've got this idea that as soon as a city becomes a city plant life, flowers, and food sources for bees cease to exist in abundance, but I just don't think that's the case.


Africanized bees are spreading across the country and they breed with all other bees. They attack things making noise, like people on lawn mowers. I don't think Cities will take the chance on getting billions of these bees in their city. They kill enough people out side the cities and hurt people real bad.

http://www.sdnhm.org/research/entomology/ahb.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africanized_bee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_mellifera_scutellata

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/LyraEDISServlet?command=getImageDetail&image_soid=FIGURE%201&document_soid=IN790&document_version=45452

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/IN790

http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/pi/plantinsp/apiary/africanbees.html



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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
TheMasonicHive
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« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2009, 07:22:10 PM »

It is my hope that they will take an educated chance, the same way a farmer takes that chance in a rural area.
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Christopher Peace
Oakland County, MI

"It teaches us that, as we come into the world rational and intelligent beings, so we should ever be industrious ones; never sitting down contented while our fellow-creatures around us are in want, when it is in our power to relieve them without inconvenience to ourselves." - Freemasonry on the Beehive
Sparky
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« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2009, 08:26:31 PM »

Africanized bees are spreading across the country and they breed with all other bees.
Come on Joelel look at where he is located. Those bees can not survive their climate. Besides say that some bees were imported to that area that were bred with the Africanized breed. One, they would more than likely not survive the winter. Two, any competent beekeep, working the hives would pick up on the aggressiveness of the colony any ratify the situation before it becomes billions as you quote.
Regardless of what the govt. offers to be a incentive for green building designs. I for one think this is a shoe in to open avenues for more beekeeps to provide much needed help, in finding locations in urban areas to start apiaries. These areas could be loaded with plant life that could sustain the bees. If the occupants are educated in the importance of the bees that are kept there and what is not considered a bee just because they have a stinger,as part of their ownership or rental agreements it could be very doable.
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TheMasonicHive
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« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2009, 07:00:28 AM »

FURTHERMORE if you want to make a climate argument, though I'm relatively safe due to the cold here in Michigan, does that mean that you shouldn't be allowed to keep bees in Southern states because there is an astronomically higher probability of that happening there.
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Christopher Peace
Oakland County, MI

"It teaches us that, as we come into the world rational and intelligent beings, so we should ever be industrious ones; never sitting down contented while our fellow-creatures around us are in want, when it is in our power to relieve them without inconvenience to ourselves." - Freemasonry on the Beehive
rick42_98
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« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2009, 08:48:59 AM »

Hi,
No you are not nuts.  My wife is a LEED certified architect in NJ.  I think it is a good idea and I will ask her to inquire.  It might be advantageous if the LEED certifying powers got pressure from more than one source.  When my wife was taking the certifying exam I was perusing the requirements.  Some of the stuff sounds a little over the top, like "dry" toilets. UGH.  Also, other things just raise the cost of construction etc.  But under the current "regime" green is good, even if it is over the top and really has dubious benefits.  Still, in all, LEED certification is the new reality and certain agencies are required to get the LEED points in order to qualify for financing etc.  I will keep you in m,ind and if she hits any pay dirt I will let you know.  I like your thinking on this.
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Joelel
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« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2009, 09:51:41 AM »

Africanized bees are spreading across the country and they breed with all other bees.
Come on Joelel look at where he is located. Those bees can not survive their climate. Besides say that some bees were imported to that area that were bred with the Africanized breed. One, they would more than likely not survive the winter. Two, any competent beekeep, working the hives would pick up on the aggressiveness of the colony any ratify the situation before it becomes billions as you quote.
Regardless of what the govt. offers to be a incentive for green building designs. I for one think this is a shoe in to open avenues for more beekeeps to provide much needed help, in finding locations in urban areas to start apiaries. These areas could be loaded with plant life that could sustain the bees. If the occupants are educated in the importance of the bees that are kept there and what is not considered a bee just because they have a stinger,as part of their ownership or rental agreements it could be very doable.

Where one breed of honey bee can live,all can. It may be harder for one then an other but fact is,the Africanized just haven't migrated that far north yet. Beside this,Africanized bees are crossed with other breed of bees and will adapt to the other breed genetics very easy. Africanized is,the African bee crossed with any other bee.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 10:21:06 AM by Joelel » Logged

Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
Jack
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« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2009, 02:37:37 PM »

The migration of the Africanized strain of honeybee seems to have halted near a certain climatic barrier. We consider ourselves lucky up north in that regard, however, we have other ailments to contend with. I support all LEEDS orientated projects.
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2009, 04:44:42 PM »

There are many options available, but I think the "what's in it for me" line of thinking has always been the wrong line of thinking.

Think of the possibilities.

What if a building owner didn't have to have the bees on site?  What if each building owner contributed a single hive to your local beekeeping club?

What if a single hive was on the roof of most of your buildings in Detroit?  What if our honeybees were feeding the homeless?

What if urban public schools offered beekeeping courses as a way to help families?

Sure honey isn't a cure all, but its a step in the right direction. 

Putting pressure on the US Green Building Council to recognize the honeybee crisis has very very far reaching possibilities. 

I'm still confused as to what you are looking for...a beekeeper in Philly or a beekeeping advocate?

Do you donate your LEED green architectural work for the good of the city and the environment?   That "green" industry has some big money in it with garden roofs and all that.... (I'm sure that it is far less than I think and its probably pretty hard-scrabble, but somebody pays a lot for all those services)

My point is that you've narrowed your pool of possible beekeepers to a very very small pool of beekeepers by limiting it to only the 100% altruistic.

I'm not saying it is a stupid idea, and I think that it is very possible and there are probably those who want to participate.  But I'd rather discuss ALL the options, altruistic or not, so that it is realistic for those donating (or investing) their time, money, and hives.

Rick
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Rick
Joelel
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« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2009, 07:29:25 PM »

As of 2002, Africanized honey bees had spread from Brazil south to northern Argentina and north to South and Central America, Trinidad (West Indies), Mexico, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Florida and southern California. Their expansion stopped for a time at eastern Texas, possibly due to the large number of European-bee beekeepers in the area. However, discoveries of the bees in southern Louisiana indicate this species of bee has penetrated this barrier [2], or has come as a swarm aboard a ship. In June 2005, it was discovered that the bees had penetrated the border of Texas and had spread into southwest Arkansas. On September 11, 2007, Commissioner Bob Odom of the Department of Agriculture and Forestry said that Africanized honey bees established themselves in the New Orleans area.[3] In February 2009, africanized honeybees were found in southern Utah.[4][5]

In tropical climates they compete effectively against European bees and, at their peak rate of expansion, they spread north at a rate of almost two kilometers (about one mile) a day. There were discussions about slowing the spread by placing large numbers of docile European-strain hives in strategic locations, particularly at the Isthmus of Panama, but various national and international agricultural departments were unable to prevent the bees' expansion. Current knowledge of the genetics of these bees suggests that such a strategy, had it been attempted, would not have been successful.[6]

As the Africanized honey bee migrates further north, colonies are interbreeding with European honey bees. There are now relatively stable geographic zones in which either Africanized bees dominate, a mix of Africanized and European bees is present, or only non-Africanized bees are found (as in southern South America or northern North America).

Africanized honey bees abscond (abandon the hive and any food stores to start over in a new location) more readily than European honey bees. This is not necessarily a severe loss in tropical climates where plants bloom all year but in more temperate climates it can leave the colony with insufficient stores to survive the winter. Thus Africanized bees are expected to be a hazard mostly in the Southern States of the United States, reaching as far north as the Chesapeake Bay in the east. The cold-weather limits of the Africanized bee have driven some professional bee breeders from Southern California into the harsher wintering locales of the northern Sierra Nevada and southern Cascade range. This is a more difficult area in which to prepare bees for early pollination placement, such as is required for the production of almonds. The reduced available winter forage in northern California means that bees must be fed for early spring buildup.

Curiously, their arrival in Central America is a threat to the ancient art of keeping stingless bees in log gums even though they do not interbreed or directly compete with the stingless bees. The honey productivity of the africanized bees so far exceeds the productivity of the native stingless bees that economic pressures force beekeepers to switch. Africanized honey bees are considered an invasive species in many regions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africanized_bee
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
Jack
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« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2009, 08:46:40 PM »

zee artiste de zee cut and paste
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Joelel
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« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2009, 09:10:21 PM »

 piano              Gets cold in Utah,wonder if African bees can stand it. Yelp,they were found there.
              soapbox
                               tumbleweed
                                                       pink elephant
                                                                               beat a dead horse
                                                                                                    locked
        happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers happy campers
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
Sparky
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« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2009, 09:56:04 PM »

Lets have a little Geography Lesson Joelel. Would you look at the map and repeat, Huh southern Utah and south west Utah border Nevada and Arizona. Would you say that it is very much warmer there than Michigan where TheMasonicHive is located.  beat a dead horse Once again any competent beekeep, working the hives would pick up on the aggressiveness of the colony. Lets not derail the good intentions of what what this post is about.
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beryfarmer
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« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2009, 07:00:47 AM »

try montgomery county beekeepers association or search pastate beekeper site
http://montcobee1.farming.officelive.com/default.aspx

http://www.pastatebeekeepers.org/
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TheMasonicHive
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« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2009, 08:00:36 AM »

Scadsobees I don't understand how what I'm asking for is confusing.

I'd imagine most people who are beekeeping advocates are beekeepers too, and I'd imagine that ALL beekeepers are beekeeping advocates.

There is an architect interested in the project in Philly.  I am wondering if there are Philly beekeepers who would be interested in helping him with a roof design that could include a hive, and once the project is complete to actually put a colony on the roof to try out the concept.

Its a two fold thing.  I can convince designers and building owners that its green and feasible, but on the other hand I would love to see these pioneers to get LEED credits for their contribution to the beekeeping community which I'd think I'd be preaching to the choir if I said that I think they should!

Joelel, the problem with your line of thinking is that even if they DID become Africanized it doesn't get rid of the need of a pollinator.  If you are so concerned maybe you should destroy your colonies and help the greater good of preventing Africanization.  You won't...why?  Because its an issue we will have to learn to adapt to.  It can't be stopped, so its a non issue.

Your line of thinking seems to take an approach that will eventually lead to beekeeping being illegal in the US.
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Christopher Peace
Oakland County, MI

"It teaches us that, as we come into the world rational and intelligent beings, so we should ever be industrious ones; never sitting down contented while our fellow-creatures around us are in want, when it is in our power to relieve them without inconvenience to ourselves." - Freemasonry on the Beehive
charmd2
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« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2009, 08:41:56 AM »

I think it's a grand idea.   Unfortunatley I'm in Missouri and am unable to Mentor a Philly hive.  But If you get any bites in West Central Missouri give me a holler. 

Joelel,  this is where a mentor could come in handy.  To Remove and replace aggressive bees.  I see no real problem keeping bees on a rooftop.  My sole concern would be the pest control agency's most companies hire to protect the outside of their buildings.   That could kill a hive in a hurry.  I know the company I work for sprays the exterior foundations..   But with proper guidance, there is no reason this can't work. 
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Charla Hinkle
Scadsobees
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« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2009, 10:21:34 AM »

Scadsobees I don't understand how what I'm asking for is confusing.

I'd imagine most people who are beekeeping advocates are beekeepers too, and I'd imagine that ALL beekeepers are beekeeping advocates.

There is an architect interested in the project in Philly.  I am wondering if there are Philly beekeepers who would be interested in helping him with a roof design that could include a hive, and once the project is complete to actually put a colony on the roof to try out the concept.



Ok, I think I understand now...

I think it could be a nice advertising gimmick for the company that inhabits the buildings, as well as for the architectural firm.  It won't really save any energy though...

A company here does something similar (not rooftop) with bees that is a bit unique.  They pay a local beekeeper to maintain some hives, extract, and bottle the honey, and then they give it away as gifts. 

http://www.inhabitat.com/2005/11/15/honey-by-herman-miller/

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Rick
TheMasonicHive
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« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2009, 01:44:18 PM »

Scadsobees,

LEED stands for Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design.  This may not be a low emissions or green energy initiative, but it would certainly qualify as Environmental Design.
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Christopher Peace
Oakland County, MI

"It teaches us that, as we come into the world rational and intelligent beings, so we should ever be industrious ones; never sitting down contented while our fellow-creatures around us are in want, when it is in our power to relieve them without inconvenience to ourselves." - Freemasonry on the Beehive
Scadsobees
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« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2009, 02:57:29 PM »

Ok, I don't know much about the LEED stuff, so that helps.

Believe it or not, I'm really trying to help  rolleyes  grin

I'm trying to get to the tangible benefits for any beekeeper involved, to make it more attractive to any area beekeepers. 

The architect and the building owner get the bragging rights, interest, money? (from design?) and possibly more customers by having the beehive on the roof.  Honestly, there is not much more than that too to get people to go with LEED certification in the first place. (anybody can be energy efficient, and the smart ones will be anyway)

I think what Herman Miller does here is a win for both the company and the beekeeper, and an architect/green building owner as well as the beekeeper could benefit from a similar arrangement. 

And why not?  If they have a green roof they are probably paying a company to care for that, and what do they get from that but a few bushels of grass clippings?  This way they'd have some unique, cool, useful gifts to give away...

That being said...this could go places...I'm thinking chickens...a small pen of chickens, fed by scraps left over from the lunch room, the hay could be shredded paper.  A pygmy goat or two to graze down the greenery up there, producing some milk.  Get a small compost heap for the scraps that the chickens can't finish...  grin

Rick
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Rick
TheMasonicHive
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« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2009, 03:31:37 PM »

Oh I absolutely understand that you're trying to help.  I just think it was a lack of me communicating my goals properly.

I just think that I wouldn't be hard pressed to find beekeepers willing to do this, but having the backing from the beekeeping community, and good stewards of the hobby representing us fairly and properly to a building owner is by far the most important hurdle to jump.
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Christopher Peace
Oakland County, MI

"It teaches us that, as we come into the world rational and intelligent beings, so we should ever be industrious ones; never sitting down contented while our fellow-creatures around us are in want, when it is in our power to relieve them without inconvenience to ourselves." - Freemasonry on the Beehive
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