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Poll
Question: Govt. Health Care . .
Yes I'm for it
No I'm against it
Don't Have an opinion


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Author Topic: Simple Poll for US citizens: Government Health Care  (Read 4594 times)
beecanbee
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2009, 08:40:10 PM »

Kathy and Robo – some great rebuttal points, particularly on comparative statistics and teh effects of immigration  So far I have not found any better ones that are closer to health care than the WHO mortality numbers – but I do see and accept the caveats you point out.

I am glad that I don't have a dog in this.... Smiley
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Paul

“I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. Smiley

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson
Scadsobees
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« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2009, 11:12:51 PM »

Is that true - that no one is refused health care?  If so, then why the ruckus about a national system? 
True, no ER system can turn you away. They will pursue payment, and there are various programs to aleviate the payment or make it affordable.  My brother had an accident this summer that left him with almost $40,000 bill he couldn't pay (single, 29, healthy, no need for insurance, right??? rolleyes).  He worked with a state program and the bill was reduced to a few thousand dollars. 

Quote
OK - actually, I think I do get it...  When we lived there, and at a time that I was briefly unemployed and with small children - I accepted the risks – I did not purchase the private insurance.  The private insurance was going to be more per month than I had cash available.  It was a decision I made.
Most if not all states (here in MI we do) have excellent free insurance programs for children if the parents can't pay.  That leaves the adults vulnerable, but the kids are covered with shots, dr visits, etc.  Sure, our state can't really afford it but that is a different conversation...

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But had an emergency arose – as had occurred in a prior year for one of our children when I did have employer provided insurance – we would have been wiped out financially and deeply in debt.
There are assistance programs, not to mention available insurance programs for kids here.

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So while it may be true that health care (emergency care at least) is available – it is not affordable for many.  Yes – I agree it is a choice to be made in today’s system.  Heck, had an emergency arose – anyone could easily have asked – why I had gotten married and had kids, if I couldn’t provide for them?  Fair enough. 
That's life.  Gotta have the munchkins  Smiley

Quote
But so too is a choice to be made on national health care – and if this were my choice, I would rather all have decent insurance coverage – than have half (?) of the population with no coverage at all (even if this was their misguided choice).

As for advanced drugs and services – if a “consumer driven” model is chosen – anyone with the right finances can buy more care.  I have not followed the new US debate close enough to know on this – but, yes – I agree that if you can afford more care, you should be able to buy it.

So we'll all pay through the nose for poor healthcare and then pay even more for adequit healthcare.  I have a feeling that is where we'll be going.
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beecanbee
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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2009, 11:37:37 PM »

So we'll all pay through the nose for poor healthcare and then pay even more for adequit healthcare.  I have a feeling that is where we'll be going.

OK - but just think of that warm feeling you will have inside for helping those who otherwise would not have had insurance or adequate health care.  (Of course, you know that I am racking you up on this.)

I just did a financial review for myself here - and figure that I break even on the costs of my national coverage - that is the cost of the services that we consume on a yearly basis - just about equates to what we pay in premiums, plus our pay portion, plus what does not get reduced from taxes at the end of the year.  Plus I have the peace of mind that comes with having full coverage insurance.  If it were not for this plan - I would probably have a more expensive and higher deductible private plan that covered less.

But as a relatively health, weight concious, food watcher - if I break even, then someone else must be paying and not consuming so as to cover those who are not so healthy and consume more.  Of course that might change in a year's time, who knows?  But again - that is the nature of insurance - you are buying peace of mind, and possibly recooping some of the cost thru consumption.
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Paul

“I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. Smiley

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson
Mason
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« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2009, 12:28:40 AM »

Quote
We also have socialized health care for the people over the age of 65 and we have socialized fire department and police and postal service and education.

Medicaire is broke

there's never a cop when you need one

the postal service is horrible and inefficient

education sux

add to that....

cash for clunkers

Amtrak

social security

and the list goes on and on

Excluding the military the government controlled entities are a 100% failure.

If in fact health care reform was about reform why are they leaving out tort reform?  Don't you think maybe the muti million dollar settlements and ambulance chasers have something to do with $10 boxes of kleenex at the hospital?  It's because it is not about health care it is about CONTROL over YOU and I. 

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Bee Happy
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« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2009, 08:39:35 AM »

I married a Canadian, and then we had an exact care for care comparison with my two brother's in law, her sister's husband and my sister's husband, both were diagnosed with multiple myloma (Sp?) around the same time, both were seen to immediately, both are in remission. My american brother in law, when his immune system was at it's absolute weakest from the chemo, was sent (out of the hospital) to stay in the RV they bought to be near the facility during treatment. The Canadian brother in law was kept in a clean-room until his immunities started coming back around. My American brother in law had military tri-care for having served until retirement I don;t know how he would have paid for his treatment otherwise - even as a retired engineer in good financial standing insurance would have left him with a pile of incidental expenses outside of the coverage. (how many Americans wind up in bankruptcy over a catastrophic illness? Because their coverage limits out - or simply leaves them hanging?)
They had almost exactly the same treatment except for the Canadian getting a clean room - He isn't an "elite" member of Canadian society, unless being a good and decent guy somehow makes you elite. - Thing is - not all the lies come only from the left - just most of them.
Republicans didn't get and overblown reputation for covering for big business without a grain of truth behind it.
I've mostly given up on politics because it seems there is no one left who tells the truth. Those horror stories about Canadian health care could be easily countered with horror stories about american healthcare.
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be happy and make others happy.
kathyp
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« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2009, 10:32:15 AM »

bee happy, you make a good point.  in general, most Canadians seem happy with their care. if they want or need care not available in Canada, they come here.  if the Canadian health care system is overwhelmed, they have contracts with hospitals here.  if we were only going to cover 23 million people, i think we could manage it rather well also.

 we are talking about covering 300 million people if the left gets it's ultimate health care wet dream.  

the only thing we have to compare it to in this country is Medicare.  Medicare is broke and most elders have supplemental coverage for what Medicare does not cover.  the only reason Medicare  care is good, is that their care is supplemented by those of us who have insurance or pay for care.  

we can do a Medicare type system here.  the system will start out broke and go down hill.  there will be no supplements from insurance payers after a few year.  they won't be able to afford to have insurance and will end up on the government system.  with no cash flow, there will be no updated equipment, no innovations in heath care, eventually the system will start to crumble even as it becomes more expensive.

this is not my fantasy.  it is reality in england.  they are only covering 63+ million.  it did not happen overnight.  

if you read the Brit news, you'll find that every election is about health care.  every person running gets grilled on how they will fix it.  whatever their answer it had better not include the word co-pay.  if it does, they will not get any job to which they need to be elected.  after all....it's supposed to be FREE!!  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Mason
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« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2009, 11:23:57 AM »

Quote
I've mostly given up on politics because it seems there is no one left who tells the truth.

The only difference in our local zoo and the white house is that our zoo has and African lion and the white house has a lying African.

Don't give up vote them out!
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David LaFerney
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« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2009, 11:42:41 AM »

The only difference in our local zoo and the white house is that our zoo has and African lion and the white house has a lying African.

 thunder  Remarkable.

I like your avatar though.
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

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kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2009, 11:57:06 AM »

OMG!!!!!!!  his joke is so much worse than those told about bush!! 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
David LaFerney
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« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2009, 12:35:43 PM »

OMG!!!!!!!  his joke is so much worse than those told about bush!! 

Sure.  I've heard some slurs about Bush that I thought were offensive.  No big deal.  Shall we race to the bottom then?
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

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Bee Happy
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« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2009, 12:41:28 PM »

The thing that concerns me most if the US implements health care is that our government doesn't have the competence or integrity to make anything work
I can agree on that kathy.
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dragonfly
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« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2009, 01:32:50 PM »

My thought on health care:

I believe we will end up with some type of national health care.
I believe we will see the quality of care go down, rationing of care, and increased costs across the board. (government programs are never cost-efficient because they don't have to be- there are no incentives to contain costs because there is no responsiblity to investors or profit)

The things that could be done to lower health care costs will never happen because they require that individuals become more responsible for their own utilization. HMO's are one of the primary reasons health care costs have skyrocketed. When congress passed the HMO laws in the 70's, coverage became more comprehensive, so people have tended to overutilize, leading to increased costs of services and pharmaceuticals. Prior to the age of the HMO, most of us had catastrophic coverage which covered 80% of unexpected hospitalization costs. We paid for our own physician office visits and our own prescriptions. If we still did that, costs would come down.
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Mason
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« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2009, 04:04:29 PM »

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OMG!!!!!!!  his joke is so much worse than those told about bush!!

what joke?

we do have an African lion at our zoo,
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kathyp
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« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2009, 04:06:47 PM »

BTW...my sisters sister-in-law is still waiting to see the ENT.  her appointment is still for early Dec.  in the mean time, she is on narcotics for the ear pain.  that's the one good thing about the NHS, they are very free with the pain killers.  it helps the patients wait!

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Scadsobees
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« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2009, 09:49:20 PM »

BTW...my sisters sister-in-law is still waiting to see the ENT.  her appointment is still for early Dec.  in the mean time, she is on narcotics for the ear pain.  that's the one good thing about the NHS, they are very free with the pain killers.  it helps the patients wait!



Well duh!  That saves tons of money since everybody knows that ear infections usually clear up by themselves.  Now if she'd been peeing blood, they'd have rushed to get her in by at least the end of November.
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Rick
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