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Poll
Question: Govt. Health Care . .
Yes I'm for it
No I'm against it
Don't Have an opinion


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Author Topic: Simple Poll for US citizens: Government Health Care  (Read 4351 times)
c10250
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« on: October 27, 2009, 09:14:51 AM »

Thoughts??
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2009, 10:20:01 AM »

i have looked at it in three countries that are economical comparable to the US, although with much smaller populations.  at best, we can expect slower care, with less technology.  at worst, our entire system will degrade and care will be rationed to those who are "contributing" to the good (tax base) of society.

addition:  i'd be interested in hearing why some people are for a government plan.  if they don't want to debate it, fair enough.  i'd just be interested in their thoughts.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 04:17:51 PM by kathyp » Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2009, 09:31:04 PM »

i'd be interested in hearing why some people are for a government plan. 

OK, I'll bite.....

I think that somewhere else here, I have mentioned some of the aspects of the national plan we have here in Japan – some good, some bad, and yes - expensive, but everyone is covered.

I will not be using the US plan as I don’t live there, but it seems to me that a rather rich country should provide better for people in need.  I have seen tent people – had them living on the edges of my farm there in the US, out in the trees near a stream.  Mostly men, but some women and children too – living in tents and cardboard boxes.  When they got sick they simply suffered thru it – and this near a town with the best possible health care system and availability in that state. 

To my way of seeing it – the US system is broken in that you need to be fairly well off to afford health care.  I do not have the statistics available – but I doubt that the US is anywhere near the top of the list in the health of its citizens when compared against similarly wealthy nations. (I could be wrong on this.)  Certainly when compared against third world countries the US whould be ahead – but is that what the US wants?  Third world country status?

The government is an insurance company – it provides what private enterprise does not do well.  It insures against foreign invaders (the military); it provides transportation (national road system); it provides for safe(er) air travel (FAA); it provides a structure for trade and commerce; it provides safeguards our wealth (banking regulations) – all of these it may not do well, but it does a better job than private enterprise could or would do. Of course there is a price to pay.  But ensuring that people do not die of infection due to a rusty nail – seems to me to be the right thing to do, and it isn’t being done now.
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Paul

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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2009, 10:08:19 PM »

Ill add to that thought........   We also have socialized health care for the people over the age of 65 and we have socialized fire department and police and postal service and education.  If all these are working and we ALL use them why are we fighting SO hard against health care.  Wouldn't it be like the fire department and the police?  Could I ask why I need to pay for anther's property to be protected?  Now I'm only 30 so I was not around when you had to pay the fire dept. to put a shield on your house in order to protect it but I HIGHLY doubt it if we would go back to those days would we?  If health is a privilege to those who can afford it why not the protection of your house and business and ordinary freedoms from the police?  Now do all these programs have problems? YES Do they still work?  YES  Will we all die of an illness if the one payer system is in-acted? NO  As it stands right now if my brother has an accident in his car and any one gets hurt he has no insurance and therefor will get fixed because its America but the 300,000 dollar hospital bill will bankrupt him.  WHY?  Because hes not good enough for insurance?  Or is it because he has 3 kids and his wife and him only make 65,000 a year and his monthly payment would equal his mortgage and a car payment every month?  Wow I didn't mean to write this much ill get off my soap box.  But Ill just say that I do not feel that by expanding the Medicare program will end in millions dying because it would be too expensive.   
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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2009, 10:22:06 PM »

I am not for a government run health care plan. I want the government to get smaller, not larger.

I will agree that our health care system needs some reform or possible regulation.

The solution is above my pay grade.



Steve
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2009, 10:26:21 PM »

I will agree that our health care system needs some reform or possible regulation.

The solution is above my pay grade.



Steve
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I agree WAY above my pay grade as well...
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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2009, 10:59:53 PM »

just a few points...sorry can't resist  grin

Quote
To my way of seeing it – the US system is broken in that you need to be fairly well off to afford health care.


no one is refused  health care.  between emergency rooms, public hospitals, and clinics, there is health care available.  you might very well need to be wealthy to afford specialized care and expensive trial drugs.  if we have nationalized care, those things will be available to no one.

Quote
but I doubt that the US is anywhere near the top of the list in the health of its citizens when compared against similarly wealthy nations. (I could be wrong on this.)


in fact, we are.  especially in areas like cancer survival rates and heart disease survival rates.  where we are lower is in things like infant mortality.  we are lower there for reasons other than health care delivery.  we save more  high risk pregnancies.  we have people from both Canada and Mexico who come here for delivery.  we have immigrants with underlying health problems because they have come from countries where health care was not available.

Quote
The government is an insurance company – it provides what private enterprise does not do well.  It insures against foreign invaders (the military); it provides transportation (national road system); it provides for safe(ER) air travel (FAA); it provides a structure for trade and commerce; it provides safeguards our wealth (banking regulations) – all of these it may not do well, but it does a better job than private enterprise could or would do. Of course there is a price to pay.  But ensuring that people do not die of infection due to a rusty nail –

there are a couple of things in your list that are the constitutional jobs of the federal government.  just because the government keep getting into things that it ought not, is not a reason to turn another segment of our lives over to them.


Quote
We also have socialized health care for the people over the age of 65 and we have socialized fire department and police and postal service and education.

Medicare and the post office are broke.  fire departments and police are local matters.  if states and communities want to provide free health care, i'm all for it if that's what the voters want.

Quote
As it stands right now if my brother has an accident in his car and any one gets hurt he has no insurance and therefor will get fixed because its America but the 300,000 dollar hospital bill will bankrupt him.  WHY?  Because hes not good enough for insurance?  Or is it because he has 3 kids and his wife and him only make 65,000 a year and his monthly payment would equal his mortgage and a car payment every month?  Wow I didn't mean to write this much ill get off my soap box.  But Ill just say that I do not feel that by expanding the Medicare program will end in millions dying because it would be too expensive.    
Posted  


your brother has chosen to have a house and car payment, but has chosen not to have health care for his family.  we all make choices.  when we were poor, we chose to drive a clunker and live in a cheep house.  we paid for medical insurance.  it did equal the rent and car payment.  it was also incentive to do better.  65 thousand is not poor.  

i am a bit amazed that all these folks that want national health care did not first take care of these issues in their own states.  Oregon has an Oregon health care plan for the working poor.  it's rationed and names are drawn by lottery, but it covers many.  other states have taken action to cover the working poor.  if folks are so concerned, that's where it should have been taken care of.  for some reason people think if it comes from the feds, it won't hurt their pocketbook.  news flash!  taxes are taxes, and i'd bet that your state does a (marginally) better job of spending  your tax dollars than the feds do.  at least you can keep a better eye on what they do.

your states also are responsible, in large part, for the cost of insurance.  state mandates force us to pay for insurance we do not need or want.  that would be a good place to start with cost control.

could it be that we have gotten so lazy that it's just easier to let someone else take care of these issues?  

talk about a soap box!   soapbox
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2009, 11:16:26 PM »

 grin grin piano
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« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2009, 11:38:51 PM »

no one is refused  health care.  between emergency rooms, public hospitals, and clinics, there is health care available.  you might very well need to be wealthy to afford specialized care and expensive trial drugs.  if we have nationalized care, those things will be available to no one.

Is that true - that no one is refused health care?  If so, then why the ruckus about a national system? 

OK - actually, I think I do get it...  When we lived there, and at a time that I was briefly unemployed and with small children - I accepted the risks – I did not purchase the private insurance.  The private insurance was going to be more per month than I had cash available.  It was a decision I made.

But had an emergency arose – as had occurred in a prior year for one of our children when I did have employer provided insurance – we would have been wiped out financially and deeply in debt.

So while it may be true that health care (emergency care at least) is available – it is not affordable for many.  Yes – I agree it is a choice to be made in today’s system.  Heck, had an emergency arose – anyone could easily have asked – why I had gotten married and had kids, if I couldn’t provide for them?  Fair enough. 

But so too is a choice to be made on national health care – and if this were my choice, I would rather all have decent insurance coverage – than have half (?) of the population with no coverage at all (even if this was their misguided choice).

As for advanced drugs and services – if a “consumer driven” model is chosen – anyone with the right finances can buy more care.  I have not followed the new US debate close enough to know on this – but, yes – I agree that if you can afford more care, you should be able to buy it.
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Paul

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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2009, 11:41:00 PM »

Well, let's see.  We both work.  Our combined income is roughly $40,000 a year.  We also have a mortgage and the same bills as every other person in the country, and we have health insurance, for which we have to cover a portion of the cost.  Why should we have to pay more in taxes to cover insurance for someone making  much more money than we?  People need to get their priorities straight.  Little Jimmy and Susie do not need all of the latest gadgets and toys that their friends have.  Mommie and Daddy need to start living within their means, not living on credit and other people's money.  LEARN TO TAKE CARE OF YOUR OWN!  DON'T EXPECT ME TO CARE FOR THEM!  angry
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« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2009, 12:20:47 AM »

in fact, we are.  


Of Japan, Germany, Israel, South Korea, Spain, the UK, Canada, France, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Italy, and the US – the US has the highest adult mortality rate, and this has been consistent (1990, 2000, 2006) – according to WHO.  This is true for each sex separately, and for both sexes combined.  I chose these countriues as they are industrialized and have advanced economies - but for most I do not know of their health care (national or not).

The US is at 109/1,000 for both sexes, Panama (108), Cuba (104), Bahrain (104) and there are many more countries that are ahead of the US.

 (To confirm, click the link, then the mortality icon, and build your own table.)

http://www.who.int/whosis/en/
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Paul

“I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. Smiley

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson
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« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2009, 12:37:25 AM »

Quote
than have half (?) of the population with no coverage at all (even if this was their misguided choice).

we have approximately 15 million out of 300 million who are not covered and can not afford insurance.  that number may be climbing with unemployment going up.  all the more reason to focus on the economy first.  there are 35 to 40 million who are not covered because they are to stupid to sign up for existing programs, or because they have chosen to pay cash for care.  care actually cost less if you can afford to pay outright for it.

ahhh.  you use the famous WHO numbers.  those numbers do not take into account immigrants, both legal and illegal, they also include war deaths, etc.  they do not separate those who come here from other countries for treatment, already sick.    they do not simply look at life and death in regard to health care or lack of it.  if you break it down by deaths by disease, you find that the US has higher cancer survival rates and higher rates of survival of heart disease than most countries.  japan might be an exception since their cancer and heart disease rates are considerably lower than those in most other developed countries. we are losing it in the area of life style diseases like diabetes.

you can pull Cuba out of there because we don't know what the heck they do.  since they can't keep the lights on and the rice cooking, it's hard to see how they can have very advanced health care.  they probably also don't count the "disappeared" as dead.

you may see the UK, France and Canadas' numbers change if they don't do something about their open immigration.  it's killing their social welfare programs including health care.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2009, 01:53:19 AM »

the famous WHO numbers

Kathy – if you have better numbers or a better source for comparative statistics please share.

If military war deaths are counted – and I’ll take your word for it that they are included in WHO numbers, they should not skew the numbers that significantly.  US Military deaths in Iraq was at 4,345 as of September 20, 2009 (Wiki).  Even if you doubled this to bring in Afghanistan, and then lumped it all into one year – you would not account for 1 of 1,000 in population.  And for immigrants (legal and illegal) – they too cannot count for as many as 1 of 1,000.   And of course legal immigrants are counted – since they are represented in the census and thus form a part of the US population of an estimated 307mm in 2009.

LOL here – but for an update on Cuba health care – go see a Moore movie.  (This is a joke, by the way.)

I stand by my assertion – If total population health care is being considered – and not just that of the currently insured, then the US health care system is a real mess.  It is not working.  If you only count those with insurance – then yes, it probably is working.  But that is what the new program is supposed to be about – or so I thought – getting healthy care for all.

I do agree with you – there are stupid people out there – even senile ones, some with debilitating mental (and physical) disorders – and I believe that even in spite of their bad choices, or inability to make a choice – that they should be covered by insurance and obtain quality health care as well.
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Paul

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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2009, 10:26:03 AM »

Of Japan, Germany, Israel, South Korea, Spain, the UK, Canada, France, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Italy, and the US – the US has the highest adult mortality rate, and this has been consistent (1990, 2000, 2006) – according to WHO.  This is true for each sex separately, and for both sexes combined.  I chose these countriues as they are industrialized and have advanced economies - but for most I do not know of their health care (national or not).

The US is at 109/1,000 for both sexes, Panama (108), Cuba (104), Bahrain (104) and there are many more countries that are ahead of the US.


Great statistics,  too bad mortality is not directly related to health care.  I'll make the absurd hypothesis that lifestyle plays a much bigger role.  Just compare the diet and exercise habits of the countries listed above.  With proper healthy living, you need very little health care.   

But not a problem, as the socialist are already passing laws on what we can and can't eat........

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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2009, 10:28:30 AM »

Quote
And of course legal immigrants are counted – since they are represented in the census and thus form a part of the US population of an estimated 307mm in 2009.

it's not about them being counted.  it's about where they come from and the level of health care they have received at home. a 40 year old coming here and having had a poor diet and no  health care, may not have the life expectancy of a 40 year old born here. the immigration issue

 becoming a problem for the UK and France.  they are finding that their immigrant population is not paying enough taxes to make up for the services they use.  they have imported low wage workers to make up for the lack of home grown workers.  + they are getting close to 50% of the population on public assistance.  that 50 pays  no taxes but uses a disproportionately high amount of service.  they also vote.

we are not far behind.

the problem with the WHO numbers is not so much that they are wrong, it's that they are statistics smiley  it does not compare survival  and health care.  it lumps all deaths together.  murder, traffic, war, etc.  

If you use WHOs infant mortality rate, it looks like we are engaged in infanticide.  if you remove from those statistics the high risk pregnancies that probably would not have made it in other countries, and the premature infants that would not even be treated in other countries, you get a much different number.

it's also helpful to remember who WHO is  Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2009, 10:33:46 AM »

Wouldn't it be like the fire department and the police? 

Absolutely Not!... Those are run by local and state municipalities, not the feds.   The feds should focus on national security and leave the rest up to the states.

Of course the other 2 examples you mention (postal & education) are perfect examples of why you don't want the feds in charge.  Think about it,  they can't even get this H1N1 shots distributed in a timely manner,  why would anyone think they could handle the entire healthcare.....

Let them demonstrate by example and straighten out the medicaid fraud before they take on the entire healthcare system and them maybe I'll be a little more open to the idea..
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2009, 11:11:44 AM »

To quote John Stossel from 20/20 ,the feds can't even count the votes right and you want them in charge of you health ! End of story.
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2009, 02:09:45 PM »

Personally I am always amused how the great big US with diversity of environments, cultures, races, etc are so consistently compared with Norway, Japan, Israel, Switzerland, etc!

How about comparing it to Europe as a whole?  Then how does it compare?
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2009, 03:57:50 PM »

Our Socialized education system is broken as well. I now pay for my children’s education through taxes however I pay for it again as they are homeschooled and I pay for all their expenses, tutor, training and curriculum out of pocket.

That’s the way I pay for their health care as well, when they are sick I buy medicine or pay for a visit.

That’s my choice and I wish to retain my freedom and choices


Ill add to that thought........   We also have socialized health care for the people over the age of 65 and we have socialized fire department and police and postal service and education.  If all these are working and we ALL use them why are we fighting SO hard against health care.  Wouldn't it be like the fire department and the police?  Could I ask why I need to pay for anther's property to be protected?  Now I'm only 30 so I was not around when you had to pay the fire dept. to put a shield on your house in order to protect it but I HIGHLY doubt it if we would go back to those days would we?  If health is a privilege to those who can afford it why not the protection of your house and business and ordinary freedoms from the police?  Now do all these programs have problems? YES Do they still work?  YES  Will we all die of an illness if the one payer system is in-acted? NO  As it stands right now if my brother has an accident in his car and any one gets hurt he has no insurance and therefor will get fixed because its America but the 300,000 dollar hospital bill will bankrupt him.  WHY?  Because hes not good enough for insurance?  Or is it because he has 3 kids and his wife and him only make 65,000 a year and his monthly payment would equal his mortgage and a car payment every month?  Wow I didn't mean to write this much ill get off my soap box.  But Ill just say that I do not feel that by expanding the Medicare program will end in millions dying because it would be too expensive.   
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2009, 05:44:27 PM »

I'm not for "Government health care" But we have a system where two people can go into the same hospital on the same day and get the same procedure but one might pay 10 times as much as the other because of which insurance company they are covered by.   It's not illegal, but there is something wrong with it.

We already have universal coverage to some extent - if you go into an emergency room with an actual emergency you will most likely be treated even if you can't (or won't) pay for it.  So, as we all know this means that those of us that do pay also pay for those who don't - even in cases where they could and should.  There's something wrong with that too.

While you are in the prime of life and healthy and employeed you might have great insurance - which you pay for even if your employer writes the checks - But if you actually get sick (too sick to work) you lose your job and your insurance even if you've been paying for it for 25 years.  Now you have a "pre existing condition" and you're 25 years older.   Good luck.   

An acquaintance of mine lived this scenario - paid for insurance for over 25 years, got cancer, could no longer work, lost his insurance.  Lost his home, savings, everything that they had before he died and left his widow destitute.

What we have been doing is not working.

 
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