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Author Topic: save the planet - give up meat  (Read 4968 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2009, 11:02:21 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming

with one click i found this partial list on wikipedia.  scientist who are "skeptics" are fired, transfered and generally shut up.  our state fired the state climatologist who had run  the department at OSU since it had been founded.  they took his title because he dared to disagree with man made global warming.

the UN has refused debate on the subject.  their panel has only believers on it.  when others have tried to speak up, they have been uninvited.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2009, 09:49:23 AM »



From the news release that you quoted:
"Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the earth.”

So it seems that there is agreement that human activity has an effect upon the earths climate?

I have used CO2 generators in greenhouse production and it does enhance plant growth.  In fact, with increased C02 levels, greenhouse plants can be grown at slighly lower temperatures and it can save money on energy costs.  So basically, when CO2 is increased, plant growth is enhanced with the result that more CO2 is accumulated in plant tissue.

I'm not talking about doom & gloom and all of the BS that exists on the extremities of the foolish debate.  There seems to an almost endless supply of strawman arguments to choose from.

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"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites."
--Thomas Jefferson
kathyp
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« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2009, 10:17:15 AM »

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"Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the earth.”


Quote
So it seems that there is agreement that human activity has an effect upon the earths climate?


your conclusion would only be true if the bulk of carbon dioxide came from man.  what they say, if you read closely, is that man created 90+ % of the excess CO2 in the atmosphere.  the key is in the word 'excess'.  what the heck is that?  then there is methane.  kill the cows to save the earth?  wonder how much methane a medium size mastodon put out?  

follow the money.  forget the hype.  what is the perfect temperature for the earth anyway?  

more coffee!   angry
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2009, 05:46:51 AM »

Quote
"Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the earth.”
Quote
So it seems that there is agreement that human activity has an effect upon the earths climate?


your conclusion would only be true if the bulk of carbon dioxide came from man.  what they say, if you read closely, is that man created 90+ % of the excess CO2 in the atmosphere.  the key is in the word 'excess'.  what the heck is that? 

The "bulk" of carbon dioxide is the natural carbon cycle.
 
In 1850, atmospheric carbon dioxide was about 280 parts per million (ppm), and today it is about 385ppm

So it is being claimed that the increase in atmospheric carbon is simply due to the earth warming up, but I thought it was being claimed that the earth was not really warming up.  Now how can that be?

The historical events of the "Little Ice Age" and  "Medieval Warm Period" are often brought into the argument.  The problem is that these were not global events.

There is also an argument about 1,500 year cycles.

The problem with these arguments is that there are some good biological records going back a couple thousand years with the bristlecone pine.  And atmospheric records of 100,000 years trapped in the Greenland ice sheet. 

In the ice sheet samples, there are records of CO2 levels fluctuating over the tens of thousands of years, but these ancient fluctuations were only in the tens of parts-per-million.

The geologic record interpretations use carbon isotopes that relate to atmospheric carbon.  Geologists claim that during the Carboniferous and Permian periods (250-300 million years ago),  atmospheric carbon levels were higher than they are at present time.   

Clean, cheap, efficient, and plentiful power generation is easily available through nuclear power.  The oil companies have done more behind the scenes to stop nuke plants from being built than all the protesters and regulators combined. 

Can we control carbon in the atmosphere?  No.  It is too late. All of the foolish nonsense about carbon-trading &c won't amount to a p-hole in the snow.  We've got to live with what we have.

 

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--Thomas Jefferson
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« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2009, 08:25:42 AM »

Just stop putting the cows in CAFO's and let them all eat grass.  Having the cows on pasture greatly improves the pasture and the percentage of organic matter in the soil.  According to an article I read (link below), if the worst 3.4 billon hectares of rangeland (pasture) increased the amout of carbon in the soil by only .5%, we would remove the 150-180 gigatons of carbon that man has put into the atmosphere since the start of the industrial revolution (this is out of a 770 gigaton total atmoshperic carbon).  Getting this level of increase is VERY doable in a 10 to 15 year period.

Full Article:  http://www.greenmoneyjournal.com/article.mpl?newsletterid=41&articleid=549

...Tim


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Bee Happy
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« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2009, 08:30:11 AM »

Ive heard that grass fed beef tastes better too.
I cant remember the name of the japanese cattle, the ones treated like they live in a resort until it's time to collect the bill. we're talking something like a couple grand for a t-bone. If all that effort makes the meat THAT good, more power to em.
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« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2009, 08:46:00 AM »

Last summer, I read an article that this past winter was going to be colder than normal. And it certainly was! They also predicted a colder summer....and it was! And they predict a colder than normal winter this year.....

Man-made problem? Something we could control? Nope......A cycling of the solar activity on the sun. Less activity translates into cooler temps on earth. Sun goes in various cycles. 5-7-15 year or something like that. We are in a solar activity slowdown period for the next number of years.

So get that wood pile stocked, and that beef in the freezer.... grin
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kathyp
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« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2009, 10:02:54 AM »

Quote
Just stop putting the cows in CAFO's and let them all eat grass
cattle require a huge amount of range land.  for many years, ranchers counted on federal land to supplement their own range land.  they have just lost a lot of that because it's now "wilderness".  in addition, many of the larger cattle ranches have to fight state regulations brought on by both tree  huggers and veggie munchers that restrict where they can graze, water use, etc.

"just let them eat grass" is a lovely idea.  ideally it would be cheaper for the rancher also, but by the time they are done with state, federal, and local restrictions + use of land loss, it's cheaper to feed them up and slaughter them quickly.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2009, 10:27:16 AM »

Quote
"just let them eat grass" is a lovely idea.  ideally it would be cheaper for the rancher also, but by the time they are done with state, federal, and local restrictions + use of land loss, it's cheaper to feed them up and slaughter them quickly.

My argument is simply this:  Cows (and eating meat in general) are NOT the problem.  Our policies (the restrictions you mention) as well as subsidising grain crops (leading to "cheaper" feed) lead us to believe that our current method of raising cattle is the best economically.  But, get rid of the restrictions and the subsidies and the economics of grass quickly become apparent.  And as a side benefit, we improve our soil.  Decide for yourself if putting the carbon back in the soil is helpful or not (as it comes for free).

...Tim
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beecanbee
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« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2009, 03:36:28 PM »

The beef we raised and ate was grass fed, except for just enough grain to get them to come in for a feeding on occasion.  This made counting and inspection a lot easier.  They tasted just fine - but the fat was not marbled as you see in stores.  Mostly they were sold to feed lots for a finish before slaughter.  Lean is fine by me.  The Japanese beef - wagyu - is way too fat for my tastes.

Our pastures looked fine too - almost park-like.  Grew a good many rabbits and quail on them too.  Yum.
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« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2009, 04:51:16 PM »

Here are the two culls out of my herd that are going to the butcher around the end of Jan.



A horned heifer and a steer.

Just got them started on grain last saturday.

G3
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JP
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« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2009, 04:58:47 PM »

On this farm the animals do most of the work, are healthy, happy and good for you.
http://www.polyfacefarms.com/


...JP
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reinbeau
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« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2009, 05:36:03 PM »

Cattle are not supposed to eat grain, they eat grasses and other prairie forbs.  They do not do better with what we feed them, the meat we eat from CAFO raised beef isn't good for us - but it makes some people tons of money, so we keep doing it the wrong way, and on the other hand continue to wonder what's wrong with our diets and why are we so fat/high cholesterol/etc.  The feed the world crap is malarkey.  More like line some pockets.  Our whole food industry is built on commodities, not food.
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JP
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« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2009, 08:05:40 PM »

This book http://www.amazon.com/Real-Food-What-Eat-Why/dp/1596913428/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246281049&sr=8-1 explains why Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations (CAFOs) are rearing meat that has been altered by being fed diets nature never intended. In a nut shell, the typical western diet has one consuming a 10-1 omega 6 to omega 3 fatty acid ratio, where it should be 1 to 1, 2 to 1 at most.

Its not simply about what we eat that's important, but what we eat eats, that's even more important to good health.


...JP
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« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2009, 08:53:43 PM »

 Hey Trout!! Thats was a TRIPPIN MOVIE, wasnt it???
your friend,
john
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G3farms
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« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2009, 11:14:31 PM »

The two that I am feeding out is on plenty of grass (two cows on about 5 acres), fresh water spring fed), mineral salt, good hay and 2 1/2 gallon of beef producer per day.
The beef producer consist of crushed corn, cotton seed hulls, corn gluten, citrus peels and some other stuff to make 14% protein. It is not like they are penned in a feed lot on straight grain.



Don't care what anybody says it is still good.

G3
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see my swarms and cut outs at https://www.youtube.com/user/soapy22bullet?feature=mhee

those hot bees will have you steppin and a fetchin like your heads on fire and your @ss is a catchin!!!

Bees will be bees and do as they please!
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« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2009, 04:13:02 PM »

It may taste good but it isn't as good for you as properly raised beef (which is naturally 'finished' by eating grain, because the animals should go to slaughter in the early fall, which is after the grasses have set seed).  Humans just don't get it.
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« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2009, 08:25:36 PM »

There isn't enough farmable land/water in the world for all of us to be vegetarians.  Ruminant animals are our way of harvesting acres of un-farmable land in a very concentrated source of nutrients.
Most large scale livestock agriculture is a complete cycle: Cows/hogs/chickens give off pollutants which are absorbed by the acres of legumes(alfalfa) that sustain them and are returned to the soil for next years blade grass(corn) crop which will also be consumed by the animals and turned back into the "pollutants" that start the cycle all over again.

Also, alot of large livestock operations are harvesting methane for fuel. The biggest complaint that I have heard so far is that the crops don't perform as well without it in the air.
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« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2009, 09:15:32 PM »

There isn't enough farmable land/water in the world for all of us to be vegetarians.  Ruminant animals are our way of harvesting acres of un-farmable land in a very concentrated source of nutrients.
Most large scale livestock agriculture is a complete cycle: Cows/hogs/chickens give off pollutants which are absorbed by the acres of legumes(alfalfa) that sustain them and are returned to the soil for next years blade grass(corn) crop which will also be consumed by the animals and turned back into the "pollutants" that start the cycle all over again.

I am not sold on referring to the byproducts of Farming animals as "pollutants". Let's not forget about the benefits to the soil that the animals provide. The chemical fertilizers that are used would be more of a pollutant that should be controlled. Some states have nutrient management programs in place.The byproducts from the animals are organic and will provide many benefits to the tonage of crops and brake down faster for uptake. That's not to say that they could not be a problem if buffer zones are not provided for runoff to waterways.
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« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2009, 10:45:49 PM »

About 30 years ago my 2 younger brothers and I developed a plan for what we called circular farming.  We started out raising grain crops, then brought in chickens to eat the excess/waste grains.  After a while the idea was to add cattle then dairy, and finally pigs.  Waste product from one segment was used as fuel (food) for the next.  We figured it would take about 2000 acres to make it all work correctly and the idea was to increase land size along with product/variety.  And get this, the manure was put through a digester and the methane gas produced was to be used to run the all the machinery (from tractors to packaging) on the farm as well.

We never got a good opportunity to put the theory into practice.
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