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Poll
Question: Should we remove social engineering from the tax code?
Agree
No, It would hurt families
No, It would hurt business investment
I like things the way they are
I don't pay taxes anyway
I want to make different changes
Your plan sucks!


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Author Topic: Income Tax Proposal  (Read 1670 times)
BoBn
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« on: November 04, 2009, 11:03:22 AM »

Income Tax Proposal

Federal income taxes account for about 30 - 40 %  of the total federal revenue.

The goal is to eliminate the social engineering from the income tax code and to create a system that is fair across the board.  This doesn't have anything to do with social security.  That is another mess.

A blind flat income tax with:
-no exemptions  - Should we be subsidizing people that are not working?
-no deductions     - Should we be controlling behavior with the tax system?
-no tax deferments
-no tax credits
-no income averaging
-no capital gains - Income is income.
-no minimums
-no maximums
-no exceptions


If the federal government decides to subsidize something, it should be through a direct payment that is out in the open where everyone can see it.

A flat tax would a little less than 5%

Congress wouldn't have much left to do since they spend so most of their time mucking around with the tax code.
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« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2009, 11:21:06 AM »

A flat tax always sounds good on paper.  The problem is that it only helps out the rich think about it: who would benefit more the man that makes 10,000 a year and pays 15% which they really can't afford or the person that makes 100,000 a year and pays 15% which they can afford. 

A real answer would be to abolish the Income Tax all together and go to a usage tax.  That way you are taxed on what you buy and not your income.  You would exempt food and medicines.  For boats and planes you could charge a little higher tax since only someone that earns a higher income would use them.
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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2009, 11:42:37 AM »

punitive taxation is never a good idea.  charging someone more because they earn more is counterproductive.  i do like the flat tax and would want it to be paid by all.  i like the sales tax even more.  you could control how much tax you paid by controlling how much you consume.  i do not like the luxury tax.  again, it is a tax that punishes those who have more.

the tax system we have now is certainly not a good one.  the idea that the more you earn the more you pay does nothing but encourage tax evasion and reduce productivity. 

my only concern is with charitable deductions.  a change in code would not hurt the smaller donaters, but it would hurt those who give the big donations.  we have a lot of organizations that depend on those dollars.

and get rid of the death tax.  how stupid is that!
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« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2009, 03:24:19 PM »

a flat tax always sounds good on paper.  The problem is that it only helps out the rich think about it: who would benefit more the man that makes 10,000 a year and pays 15% which they really can't afford or the person that makes 100,000 a year and pays 15% which they can afford. 

a real answer would be to abolish the Income Tax all together and go to a usage tax.  That way you are taxed on what you buy and not your income.  You would exempt food and medicines.  For boats and planes you could charge a little higher tax since only someone that earns a higher income would use them.

The biggest problem in this country today, is that a person making $100,000.00 per year is rich, but is not recognised as rich by society, or the government.
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« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2009, 11:01:54 PM »

 Vermmy I have to disagree with you it doesn't matter if you make $2 or 2 million if you couldn't afford the 15% your simply living beyond your means.
 Flipping burgers is fine if your a student living at home or looking for a second job. but,
If that's all some one ever bothered to learn they have have no right to complain about being broke and even less to say the government owes you money to be that way.
 Though I agree that food should probably not be taxed penalizing other things makes no sense.
 What about the guy that buys a tour boat, or runs a small aviation business? would you penalize them for making a living?
 Or a bigger can of worms what if they only use it part time for business and part time for personal use?you would be right back to having a tax code again paying untold millions in salaries for  crooked government entities to keep people "honest".
 What the lower income earners often fail to realize is that the upper income has such an addiction to money and want so much more that they use what they have to make more which means more jobs. more niches to fill that again leads to more jobs . I know this is a little dated since his retirement but look at it this way who employs more people to make money for them, Bill Gates or the owner of your local family restaurant, convenience store  or what ever?

Sorry I will now step off the soap box and accept my tarring and feathering.
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« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2009, 11:37:33 PM »

Hey irerob, first I was shooting down the idea about a flat tax since it only benefits some one who has a higher income and that is why, most influential people back it.  Second if someone buys a plane for reasons of a business they could pass the cost along to the consumer (like they do now).  As a Accountant you take the full cost of an asset to get it into place that includes freight and cost of setting it up.  That is why part of, Cost of Goods Sold are devoted to purchases.
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irerob
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« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2009, 12:13:14 AM »

  Fair enough so you like the tax system the way it is?
  The idea that the rich should pay more because they have it does indeed look good on paper I agree with that part , but in practice is another story.
I'll try to keep this as short as possible.
  I live in an area of lots of old money and trust fund babies it makes me sick to listen how junior got Porsche for getting into school and daddy will sign over one of his car dealership to him when he graduates, (being in the service industry you over hear a lot).
 and part of me wants to see these people taxed in to poverty just for the principle.
 But on the other hand , these peoples over whelming greed and addiction to money means they own multiple million dollar businesses all of which provide lots of jobs at various income levels and if they had more money through less taxes or what have you they would use it to make more money. when we raise the taxes on this income bracket they just find more ways to hide it thus reducing the open businesses and jobs.
 I could even stand by some thing like  10% up to a certain level then 20%. I do how ever think the way we punish people for being successful through the extreme taxes they pay so people can get thousands in earned income credit for working at McDonald's and spitting out babies should be a crime and a flat tax  or one with a flat percent would be one way to solve that.

and vermmy I'm not trying to be nasty I just have a very different point if view.
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« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2009, 04:34:07 PM »

do away with income tax institute a 15% sales tax on everything minus food. That way you catch everyone dope dealers to CEO's everytime you buy something you pay. Plus like Kathy said you regulate your taxes by what you consume

Keith
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« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2009, 05:06:37 PM »

do away with income tax institute a 15% sales tax on everything minus food. That way you catch everyone dope dealers to CEO's everytime you buy something you pay. Plus like Kathy said you regulate your taxes by what you consume

Keith

Every time you buy something?  Houses? Stocks, bonds, mutual funds?  Insurance, pharmaceuticals, doctor visits, tuition?  Sounds like the biggest tax increase ever devised.  Am I wrong?  Then if you say "Oh, not that." Then we're back to a convoluted system of exemptions and social engineering.

It ain't an easy issue.
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« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2009, 05:14:19 PM »

yep everything...
you buy a house you pay for it one way or the other now property tax local taxes add them up seems a one time 15% would be a break
 Stocks bonds mutual funds yep 15% and your done
lets say you buy one share for 100 bucks pay 15 % so 115 per share now when ever you are ready to sell you sell tax free no more capital gains no more death tax


Yes I do believe it should be across the board

Keith
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2009, 11:44:50 PM »

a flat tax always sounds good on paper.  The problem is that it only helps out the rich think about it: who would benefit more the man that makes 10,000 a year and pays 15% which they really can't afford or the person that makes 100,000 a year and pays 15% which they can afford. 

a real answer would be to abolish the Income Tax all together and go to a usage tax.  That way you are taxed on what you buy and not your income.  You would exempt food and medicines.  For boats and planes you could charge a little higher tax since only someone that earns a higher income would use them.

usage tax aka sales tax is what we have in Washington it is a real roller coaster.  Plenty of money in good years but when the economy goes bust, as it currently is, it's a real nail biter.  It is better to have a reliable tax system but an income tax is not reliable if it is not equal or if other tax sources are not reduced to compensate.  We keep voting down a income tax here in Washington because if the built in inequities of the federal system, upon which a state system is most likely to be based, and because there would be no offset reduction in the current 8+% sales tax.
A flat tax system is equitable to all.
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« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2009, 07:17:14 AM »

Go here, for the answer to most of our problems.

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer
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« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2009, 09:58:25 AM »

brian, i agree that the flat tax is the best on paper.  thing is, you know they are going to exempt that same 40+ %  that pays no taxes now.  we are not talking about changing what states do.  only changing the feds source of revenue from the unfair way they do it now, to a national sales tax.

if they run out of money, so much the better.  might  not hurt to put them back on the gold standard also.  at least it would put money printing in check.
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« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2009, 01:26:20 PM »

Why is no one squealing about the tobacco taxes? As a tax it hits the poor at a much higher percentage of their income. Maybe they should eliminate this tax on the smoking poor.  I would be for a flat tax and end the earned income credit. It is nothing short of a gift that unmarried people can take full advantage of by filing as single heads of household without a responsible spouse to help raise their kids. There is not even a need to provide a fathers name for the children to recoup the taxpayer expenditure.(Many of tehse couples are togetrher,just not by marriage,so they get a gift married people pay for.

P.S I am a non smoker,I just do not like the principle of the tobbaco tax.
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« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2009, 01:57:23 PM »

smokers are evil.  it's easy to tax evil.  you see the big stink about the juice and pop tax?  why should i care.  i don't drink juice and pop. 

i am a smoker and i hate (not so much) to say I TOLD YOU SO!!!!

if this health care thing goes through, you can expect more sin taxes.  they will try to regulate behavior with taxes and when that doesn't work they will regulate it "for the good of all".
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2009, 02:46:16 PM »

The tax code has become a mechanism to protect the people from themselves. The government needs to get out of the way and not compete against private enterprise.With taxes they are competing for your money ,although it is not much competition when they can mandate it.If any one really  believes the government can decide what to do with over 30 percent of your money than you can for yourself, we are headed for total ruin.
For many it is much more than that,15 percent right offf the bat for social security,add federal income tax,state income tax, many local income taxes. School taxes,sales taxes ,gas taxes,real property taxes in  some states,use taxes utility taxes,and let us not forget the government has already taxed the producers of every item you have purchased.
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« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2009, 05:10:13 PM »

Go here, for the answer to most of our problems.

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer


I looked at the proposals, but they have proposed exemptions.  Once you have exemptions and deductions and credits, it opens the door for congress to muck around with the tax code.

The tax code has become a mechanism to protect the people from themselves.


Regulatory taxation is some of the oldest type taxation we have in the USA.  Federal taxes on distilled alcohol is the one that every is aware of, there are also taxes on rubber and fuel. 

Back in the 1970s fuel and rubber taxes were increased to pay for the federal program: "Energy Independence By The Year 2000".   
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