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Author Topic: save the planet - give up meat  (Read 4808 times)
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« on: October 27, 2009, 03:41:09 AM »

Could you give up meat to save the planet?  rolleyes

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6891362.ece#

This article does not mention chickens, fish, turtles, frogs, rabbits, etc. - so I assume the author is OK with limited animal protein consumption.  I know that I could go without beef or pork - but would be hard put if I needed to give up fish.
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2009, 08:25:23 AM »

Oh, for pete's sake, we are omnivores, we need meat.  We just don't need to raise them in the CAFO model.  I get so tired of vegetarians and their agenda.  I don't care if you want to be a veg, just leave me alone while I eat my grass-fed small piece of steak every once in awhile  rolleyes
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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2009, 08:48:13 AM »

Does that mean that we won't want to eat our PETS?

Boy, the mixed signals we get...first we need to eat our pets, then we can't eat them afterall because they are made of meat.  What are we supposed to do?? rolleyes 
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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2009, 09:57:37 AM »

Can I give up meat?

No I love the fat slab of meat cooked just enough so I can't see where the cowboy was beating it and blood heated just enough to stop it from flowing. Matter of fact might go out for steak at lunch today....in fact I will talked myself in to it.

People there is a reason our eyes are on the front of our face and not on the sides of our head we are predators. we are designed to kill our food

Keith
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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2009, 10:02:37 AM »

i like meat.  i buy it half a carcass at a time.  it PETA had their way, all the animals would be turned lose to breed at will and over populate the planet.  if the global warming nuts had their way, there would be no animals and vegetation would strangle us.  if you think the critters are causing a problem, buy a bunch of them and send them to starving kids somewhere.  good for the meat industry and good for the kids.
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2009, 10:17:53 AM »

That is ridiculous,

how arrogant can someone bee to actually think "man" can and is controlling the temperature of the earth.

The whole global warming issue is complete bunk.  The global warming issue was invented by men to promote a personal agenda.

You can pry my warm juicy burger out of my cold dead hand.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/5664069/Polar-bear-expert-barred-by-global-warmists.html 

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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2009, 10:33:24 AM »

Don't kill the poor poor sea kittens!  They're just out there unhappily absorbing the vile carbon that us mean mean people insist on spewing into the atmosphere!

(Seriously .  It's absurd....)
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« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2009, 01:27:16 PM »

I'll give up my beef when they pry my cold dead fingers from it.  No wait that was my gun not my beef.   Boy i think 52 years of rare steaks has clouded by brain.   Just knock there horns off,  wipe there smelly little @** and through them on my plate
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« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2009, 03:58:40 PM »

Don't kill the poor poor sea kittens!  They're just out there unhappily absorbing the vile carbon that us mean mean people insist on spewing into the atmosphere!

(Seriously .  It's absurd....)


Thanks for posting that - that's outrageously funny except I can see it making long term headway (I guess they forgot all about dogfish - how shellfish of them, it almost makes me feel crabby)

beef is a tough call - cattle exhale carbon dioxide, expel methane, all around they are just four legged SUVs that taste good. I say Kill a bovine and save the planet - but not too many; just be sure and cook them with a grill powered by a zero emission nuclear generator (the nukes are all zero emission).
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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2009, 05:54:32 PM »

 Pass out the suntan oil in Alaska I'm having steak tonite !
With a side of pork chops
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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2009, 06:14:12 PM »

Could you give up meat to save the planet?
NO WAY!!! I'm a meat and potatoes man and will keep it that way as long as I can break it down. Even if it means pounding it down to smaller parts.
I too believe the global warming thing is blown way out of proportion. Look at long term history and it is proven that the earth goes trough cycles and some day will have the cold weather of the past. The same thing goes on with the ozone layer. This is not the first time that the glaciers were melting. Not that people should not be wise of methods of taking care, to do their part so not to destroy what future generations will inherit. I know that cattle and other animals produce a large amount of methane gas but so do we humans. I can tell you for a fact that many vegetables cause us to expell a bunch of gas. SO where do we draw the line? No more beans? Where was the meat in them?
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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2009, 08:06:12 PM »



  "Meat's meat and a man's gotta eat" Farmer Vincent Smith, Motel Hell.  evil
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« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2009, 08:17:18 PM »

If GOD did not intend for meat to be eaten, he would not have made it taste so good!

Steve
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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2009, 09:08:48 PM »

  Don't kill the poor poor sea kittens! 

Liked that one..... Wink

I grew up on a farm and we raised beef cattle – which fed, clothed, educated, and did everything else there was to be done for us.  So I didn’t think that anyone – or many would give up their steak, roasts, bacon or chops - just as I will not likely give up my sea kittens.  I have largely given up beef – but that is by choice, not due to a belief in saving the planet, but simply because I like fish better now.

So for those who believe that methane producing food needs to change – they better come up with something better that abstinence, because we all know that abstinence does not work.
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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2009, 09:58:26 PM »

If GOD did not intend for meat to be eaten, he would not have made it taste so good!

Steve

And if God didn't want us to eat animals, then why did He make them out of meat??
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« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2009, 11:54:53 PM »

There would be less methane if those "chicken little's" would quit spewing "the sky is falling"....then room for BEEF!  evil grin YUM! I don't eat much cause we can't afford it but I love my steaks!!  We are omnivores just like bears & chix!
If GOD did not intend for meat to be eaten, he would not have made it taste so good!

Steve

And if God didn't want us to eat animals, then why did He make them out of meat??
Amen!

Jody
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2009, 09:44:00 AM »

beef is a tough call - cattle exhale carbon dioxide, expel methane, all around they are just four legged SUVs that taste good.

Actually cattle are ruminants that do serve a purpose, to the planet, they're Nature's lawn mowers.  The fact that they taste good to humans is just an unintended bonus.
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2009, 01:07:20 PM »

That is ridiculous,

I agree
Quote
how arrogant can someone bee to actually think "man" can and is controlling the temperature of the earth.

We can't control global average temperatures, but we certainly have increased the carbon in our atmosphere.  Carbon that was accumulated over millions of years in the ground.
Or maybe you believe that the world was created on 7:30 PM Saturday 22, October 4004 BC, because Archbishop James Ussher said so.
Quote
The whole global warming issue is complete bunk.  The global warming issue was invented by men to promote a personal agenda.

There is plenty of bunk and grandstanding.  The various climate models are useful tools that are gradually increasing our understanding on how the earth's atmosphere works.  The computer models were not developed by men and women with "personal agendas".
I agree that there are plenty of people with personal agendas that are touting half-arsed snippets of information. 

 There is only one well-known climate scientist that says that the climate change is a completely natural phenomenon.


 



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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2009, 01:52:35 PM »

If the Planet needs me to give up meat to survive - it's going to die.

How come we can never give up beets, or other stinky veggies. Oh, they don't stink, but I have memories of the smell of beets at 4am when my Mom got into cooking them up - the air would be so thick with beet aroma, you could taste it. It was being underwater because the air was so thick.

I never smelled a steak I didn't like the smell of, even if I can't see for the smoke Smiley

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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2009, 10:35:25 PM »

Quote
There is only one well-known climate scientist that says that the climate change is a completely natural phenomenon.


Libby la la land......  he is well known because he defected on the hoax.  The leading expert on polar bears was barred from the global warming conference because he was going to report the bears are thriving.  Suppose they need another expert.

try 31,000

http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/al_gore_global_warming/2008/05/19/97307.html

Look who directly benefits from Cap and Trade and you will find that it is about personal agendas.  The fact is that when temperatures rise so does carbon.  Not the other way around as some would like you to believe.  There are even some scientist who hypothesis we are in a cooling trend and that the recent warm temperature were only due to solar flares.   
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2009, 11:02:21 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming

with one click i found this partial list on wikipedia.  scientist who are "skeptics" are fired, transfered and generally shut up.  our state fired the state climatologist who had run  the department at OSU since it had been founded.  they took his title because he dared to disagree with man made global warming.

the UN has refused debate on the subject.  their panel has only believers on it.  when others have tried to speak up, they have been uninvited.
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« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2009, 09:49:23 AM »



From the news release that you quoted:
"Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the earth.”

So it seems that there is agreement that human activity has an effect upon the earths climate?

I have used CO2 generators in greenhouse production and it does enhance plant growth.  In fact, with increased C02 levels, greenhouse plants can be grown at slighly lower temperatures and it can save money on energy costs.  So basically, when CO2 is increased, plant growth is enhanced with the result that more CO2 is accumulated in plant tissue.

I'm not talking about doom & gloom and all of the BS that exists on the extremities of the foolish debate.  There seems to an almost endless supply of strawman arguments to choose from.

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« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2009, 10:17:15 AM »

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"Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the earth.”


Quote
So it seems that there is agreement that human activity has an effect upon the earths climate?


your conclusion would only be true if the bulk of carbon dioxide came from man.  what they say, if you read closely, is that man created 90+ % of the excess CO2 in the atmosphere.  the key is in the word 'excess'.  what the heck is that?  then there is methane.  kill the cows to save the earth?  wonder how much methane a medium size mastodon put out?  

follow the money.  forget the hype.  what is the perfect temperature for the earth anyway?  

more coffee!   angry
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« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2009, 05:46:51 AM »

Quote
"Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the earth.”
Quote
So it seems that there is agreement that human activity has an effect upon the earths climate?


your conclusion would only be true if the bulk of carbon dioxide came from man.  what they say, if you read closely, is that man created 90+ % of the excess CO2 in the atmosphere.  the key is in the word 'excess'.  what the heck is that? 

The "bulk" of carbon dioxide is the natural carbon cycle.
 
In 1850, atmospheric carbon dioxide was about 280 parts per million (ppm), and today it is about 385ppm

So it is being claimed that the increase in atmospheric carbon is simply due to the earth warming up, but I thought it was being claimed that the earth was not really warming up.  Now how can that be?

The historical events of the "Little Ice Age" and  "Medieval Warm Period" are often brought into the argument.  The problem is that these were not global events.

There is also an argument about 1,500 year cycles.

The problem with these arguments is that there are some good biological records going back a couple thousand years with the bristlecone pine.  And atmospheric records of 100,000 years trapped in the Greenland ice sheet. 

In the ice sheet samples, there are records of CO2 levels fluctuating over the tens of thousands of years, but these ancient fluctuations were only in the tens of parts-per-million.

The geologic record interpretations use carbon isotopes that relate to atmospheric carbon.  Geologists claim that during the Carboniferous and Permian periods (250-300 million years ago),  atmospheric carbon levels were higher than they are at present time.   

Clean, cheap, efficient, and plentiful power generation is easily available through nuclear power.  The oil companies have done more behind the scenes to stop nuke plants from being built than all the protesters and regulators combined. 

Can we control carbon in the atmosphere?  No.  It is too late. All of the foolish nonsense about carbon-trading &c won't amount to a p-hole in the snow.  We've got to live with what we have.

 

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« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2009, 08:25:42 AM »

Just stop putting the cows in CAFO's and let them all eat grass.  Having the cows on pasture greatly improves the pasture and the percentage of organic matter in the soil.  According to an article I read (link below), if the worst 3.4 billon hectares of rangeland (pasture) increased the amout of carbon in the soil by only .5%, we would remove the 150-180 gigatons of carbon that man has put into the atmosphere since the start of the industrial revolution (this is out of a 770 gigaton total atmoshperic carbon).  Getting this level of increase is VERY doable in a 10 to 15 year period.

Full Article:  http://www.greenmoneyjournal.com/article.mpl?newsletterid=41&articleid=549

...Tim


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« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2009, 08:30:11 AM »

Ive heard that grass fed beef tastes better too.
I cant remember the name of the japanese cattle, the ones treated like they live in a resort until it's time to collect the bill. we're talking something like a couple grand for a t-bone. If all that effort makes the meat THAT good, more power to em.
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« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2009, 08:46:00 AM »

Last summer, I read an article that this past winter was going to be colder than normal. And it certainly was! They also predicted a colder summer....and it was! And they predict a colder than normal winter this year.....

Man-made problem? Something we could control? Nope......A cycling of the solar activity on the sun. Less activity translates into cooler temps on earth. Sun goes in various cycles. 5-7-15 year or something like that. We are in a solar activity slowdown period for the next number of years.

So get that wood pile stocked, and that beef in the freezer.... grin
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« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2009, 10:02:54 AM »

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Just stop putting the cows in CAFO's and let them all eat grass
cattle require a huge amount of range land.  for many years, ranchers counted on federal land to supplement their own range land.  they have just lost a lot of that because it's now "wilderness".  in addition, many of the larger cattle ranches have to fight state regulations brought on by both tree  huggers and veggie munchers that restrict where they can graze, water use, etc.

"just let them eat grass" is a lovely idea.  ideally it would be cheaper for the rancher also, but by the time they are done with state, federal, and local restrictions + use of land loss, it's cheaper to feed them up and slaughter them quickly.
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« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2009, 10:27:16 AM »

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"just let them eat grass" is a lovely idea.  ideally it would be cheaper for the rancher also, but by the time they are done with state, federal, and local restrictions + use of land loss, it's cheaper to feed them up and slaughter them quickly.

My argument is simply this:  Cows (and eating meat in general) are NOT the problem.  Our policies (the restrictions you mention) as well as subsidising grain crops (leading to "cheaper" feed) lead us to believe that our current method of raising cattle is the best economically.  But, get rid of the restrictions and the subsidies and the economics of grass quickly become apparent.  And as a side benefit, we improve our soil.  Decide for yourself if putting the carbon back in the soil is helpful or not (as it comes for free).

...Tim
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« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2009, 03:36:28 PM »

The beef we raised and ate was grass fed, except for just enough grain to get them to come in for a feeding on occasion.  This made counting and inspection a lot easier.  They tasted just fine - but the fat was not marbled as you see in stores.  Mostly they were sold to feed lots for a finish before slaughter.  Lean is fine by me.  The Japanese beef - wagyu - is way too fat for my tastes.

Our pastures looked fine too - almost park-like.  Grew a good many rabbits and quail on them too.  Yum.
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« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2009, 04:51:16 PM »

Here are the two culls out of my herd that are going to the butcher around the end of Jan.



A horned heifer and a steer.

Just got them started on grain last saturday.

G3
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« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2009, 04:58:47 PM »

On this farm the animals do most of the work, are healthy, happy and good for you.
http://www.polyfacefarms.com/


...JP
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« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2009, 05:36:03 PM »

Cattle are not supposed to eat grain, they eat grasses and other prairie forbs.  They do not do better with what we feed them, the meat we eat from CAFO raised beef isn't good for us - but it makes some people tons of money, so we keep doing it the wrong way, and on the other hand continue to wonder what's wrong with our diets and why are we so fat/high cholesterol/etc.  The feed the world crap is malarkey.  More like line some pockets.  Our whole food industry is built on commodities, not food.
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« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2009, 08:05:40 PM »

This book http://www.amazon.com/Real-Food-What-Eat-Why/dp/1596913428/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246281049&sr=8-1 explains why Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations (CAFOs) are rearing meat that has been altered by being fed diets nature never intended. In a nut shell, the typical western diet has one consuming a 10-1 omega 6 to omega 3 fatty acid ratio, where it should be 1 to 1, 2 to 1 at most.

Its not simply about what we eat that's important, but what we eat eats, that's even more important to good health.


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« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2009, 08:53:43 PM »

 Hey Trout!! Thats was a TRIPPIN MOVIE, wasnt it???
your friend,
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« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2009, 11:14:31 PM »

The two that I am feeding out is on plenty of grass (two cows on about 5 acres), fresh water spring fed), mineral salt, good hay and 2 1/2 gallon of beef producer per day.
The beef producer consist of crushed corn, cotton seed hulls, corn gluten, citrus peels and some other stuff to make 14% protein. It is not like they are penned in a feed lot on straight grain.



Don't care what anybody says it is still good.

G3
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« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2009, 04:13:02 PM »

It may taste good but it isn't as good for you as properly raised beef (which is naturally 'finished' by eating grain, because the animals should go to slaughter in the early fall, which is after the grasses have set seed).  Humans just don't get it.
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« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2009, 08:25:36 PM »

There isn't enough farmable land/water in the world for all of us to be vegetarians.  Ruminant animals are our way of harvesting acres of un-farmable land in a very concentrated source of nutrients.
Most large scale livestock agriculture is a complete cycle: Cows/hogs/chickens give off pollutants which are absorbed by the acres of legumes(alfalfa) that sustain them and are returned to the soil for next years blade grass(corn) crop which will also be consumed by the animals and turned back into the "pollutants" that start the cycle all over again.

Also, alot of large livestock operations are harvesting methane for fuel. The biggest complaint that I have heard so far is that the crops don't perform as well without it in the air.
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« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2009, 09:15:32 PM »

There isn't enough farmable land/water in the world for all of us to be vegetarians.  Ruminant animals are our way of harvesting acres of un-farmable land in a very concentrated source of nutrients.
Most large scale livestock agriculture is a complete cycle: Cows/hogs/chickens give off pollutants which are absorbed by the acres of legumes(alfalfa) that sustain them and are returned to the soil for next years blade grass(corn) crop which will also be consumed by the animals and turned back into the "pollutants" that start the cycle all over again.

I am not sold on referring to the byproducts of Farming animals as "pollutants". Let's not forget about the benefits to the soil that the animals provide. The chemical fertilizers that are used would be more of a pollutant that should be controlled. Some states have nutrient management programs in place.The byproducts from the animals are organic and will provide many benefits to the tonage of crops and brake down faster for uptake. That's not to say that they could not be a problem if buffer zones are not provided for runoff to waterways.
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« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2009, 10:45:49 PM »

About 30 years ago my 2 younger brothers and I developed a plan for what we called circular farming.  We started out raising grain crops, then brought in chickens to eat the excess/waste grains.  After a while the idea was to add cattle then dairy, and finally pigs.  Waste product from one segment was used as fuel (food) for the next.  We figured it would take about 2000 acres to make it all work correctly and the idea was to increase land size along with product/variety.  And get this, the manure was put through a digester and the methane gas produced was to be used to run the all the machinery (from tractors to packaging) on the farm as well.

We never got a good opportunity to put the theory into practice.
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« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2009, 11:44:09 AM »

It may taste good but it isn't as good for you as properly raised beef (which is naturally 'finished' by eating grain, because the animals should go to slaughter in the early fall, which is after the grasses have set seed). Humans just don't get it.


Could you please elaborate on the "proper way to finish", I would like to know.

"humans just don't grt it"...................are you not human?? grin huh grin

G3
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Bees will be bees and do as they please!
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« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2009, 01:15:42 PM »

I'm human, but one of the ones who likes to study and learn.  Cattle are ruminants, they eat grasses and forbs, and grains at the end of the season.  'Grain Fed' was sold to us as better tasting, better for us beef, turns out it's a horrible way to raise cattle for consumption, other than making money faster.  We are eating muscle filled with inflammation, the antibiotics are needed to keep them from dying of the infection brewing in their rumens, where it's a race to feed the steer and get him to market weight before that infection kills him - it's nasty.  The ratio of omegas is off because they should be eating the grasses that are full of Omega-3s, instead they're eating corn that's full of Omega-6s, that sends our cholesterol off - but someone is making money!!  I guess that's the more important thing here, not good food production but profit margins.  We've been sold a bill of goods, it's the root of so much of the health problems in this country (obesity, high cholesterol, diabetes - heck, diabetes is a lifestyle now!). 

Brian, you and your brother had it right - Joel Salatin is working that system pretty well for himself down in Virginia.
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« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2009, 04:11:19 PM »

Well if you will notice mine are on plenty of grass, spring water, mineral salt block, good hay and a feed mix (not just straight grain). They have not had any antibiotics in their life. What would cause their musles to be inflamed huh They are not ailing from anything.

Just asking and not trying to pick on you or start a fight in any way at all, but just wondering if you eat beef (or pork, poultry, fish, etc.)? and if so how do you go about picking it out........home grown, super market, or somewhere else? Like I said just curious.

I am trying more and more to grow what my family eats and get away from the industrial farm food products. I'm not a tree hugger by a long shot, but most people have no clue what they are eating. We can taste the difference in home grown veggies and meats.

G3
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Bees will be bees and do as they please!
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« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2009, 05:15:31 PM »

You're growing it right, I've got no problems with your kind of management.  Unfortunately that isn't how the huge CAFO operations work.  I definitely eat beef, and anything else that doesn't eat me first Smiley  I just really wish we could step back about 40-50 years, before the real industrial revolution happened with our food supply.  I'm old enough to remember what real, well raised beef tasted like.  I'll bet yours tastes like it!

What causes the inflammation in the CAFO raised beef is the constant infection in their rumen from eating a corn based diet.  They just aren't supposed to eat that much grain.  Pigs can, chickens can, but ruminants can't.

I wish it were cheaper to get well-raised meats here.  I buy it at the local health food store, because of the price, we eat much less of it than we used to!!  I buy frozen fish from Trader Joe's, only wild caught.  If I want fresh, I'm fortunate, being here on the South Shore of Massachusetts, we've got lots of good seafood vendors to choose from.
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