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Author Topic: space exploration : what do you think  (Read 5284 times)
David LaFerney
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« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2009, 11:53:25 AM »

All true, but the nearest stars are only a few light years away in our own galaxy.   It would still be a long trip - pretty much a life commitment for any passengers - but not millions or even hundreds of years.  There is a lot to see without leaving our own star system.  I've never even been to the grand canyon. 

Some of the outer planets and moons are supposed to be swimming with hydrocarbons - it's a wonder that hasn't got us out there already.   grin
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« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2009, 11:57:13 AM »

After Mars, that's about it for exploration, except probes. I'm not against exploration, but going somewhere knowing nothing is there is a silly waste of money. We have 7 miles to the deepest parts of the ocean and have been as far (with people aboard) just over 2.6 miles down. That is a goal of exploration that is obtainable and we know there is likely all new species of life there to find - maybe some crustacean that yields a cure for cancer. I'm just saying, go where we can use the money best until we have the technology to go further, I don't think THAT is being closed minded on Exploration.

On the moon is an element called He3 (Helium 3) which is found in only 0.01 ppm and we consider that an abundant supply.  He3 has many uses, from medical applications to a reliable energy source.  As an energy source it cheap and cleaner than anything that we can use now.   Think about it: no air or water pollution and the waste is a low grade radioactive not much more than garnet (and we use that in our homes).  Now what I am getting at is at 0.01 ppm it would take 100 million Tones of regolith to make 1 ton of He3.  Now in the gas giants in our solar system, it is in much grater quantities.  He3 is difficult and expensive to make in here on earth and is not found in sufficient quantities here on Earth.  
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« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2009, 12:08:12 PM »

Unless there has been a new development that I'm not aware of (possible) Helium 3 is a fuel that can be used in fusion which may have great potential as an energy source, but so far uses more energy than it produces.

If I'm wrong I would be very interested.
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« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2009, 12:16:33 PM »

From everything that I have read, the breakeven point is 5 cents per kilowatt-hour
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« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2009, 12:49:18 PM »

All true, but the nearest stars are only a few light years away in our own galaxy.   It would still be a long trip - pretty much a life commitment for any passengers - but not millions or even hundreds of years.

Alpha Centauri
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Alpha Centauri (α Centauri / α Cen); (also known as Rigil Kentaurus, Rigil Kent, or Toliman) is the brightest star in the southern constellation of Centaurus and an established binary star system, Alpha Centauri AB (α Cen AB). To the unaided eye it appears as a single star, whose total visual magnitude would identify it as the third brightest star in the night sky.

Alpha Centauri is the closest star system to the Solar System, being only 1.34 parsecs, or 4.37 light years away from our Sun

_________________________

Using the same math, where lightspeed is 781 milliom miles per hour, times the distance away 4.37  divided by the real time we can blast through the Universe of 17,800 mph - you get 191739.88 years  it will take to get there, I don't see where that is much better honestly. And remember, it doesn't matter if it is manned or unmanned, it still would take as long, the only difference (although it is a hugh one) is the life support bio-derm. But probes can be sent, knowing that we will get nothing back for  4.37 years AFTER it takes 191 thousand to get there. I do hate the sad thruth of time and space, as I humble know it.

I only wish worm holes, blackholes were portals and more so wish if they did have magical powers of transending time, allowing us to travel instanntly 10 billion years away, but even if that is what they could do, they are still to far away to ever get to.

Trust me, the sad truth is hopping around our solar system is the only practical exploring, and in most cases it is the MOONS of our neighboring planets we'd explore, not the planets themselves. Many have such mass due to their size we could never excape its gravity.

So visiting other moons sounds great and relatively practical. I just hope we do it with very sophisticate machices than life-supporting a human crew - look at the Mars rovers, somehow working years and years beyond what was expected and stil kicking.

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« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2009, 01:39:41 PM »

Yeah, I didn't do the math.  That's a long time, and the speed isn't enough to take advantage of relativistic time dilation for the passengers either.  You're right we have to make a faster car before we go on that road trip or we would find our more advanced (hopefully) great grandchildren already got all the good spots by the time we arrive. 

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« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2009, 02:37:54 PM »

I don't think there's an actual top speed in space; though time itself becomes a problem for travelers - I saw something about time changing for the traveler but I don't remember the number (as an example lightspeed to 100 LY away would actually take the traveler 36 (months?) but would be 100.9 years from an earth perspective) don't hold me to those figures exactly - I just remember the assertion being something along those lines. (I think the you tube post was titled "star trek is for morons" )
 We can do light speed in space - there's no atmospheric resistance; though there may be other physical factors at play that I'm not aware of (yet).
the problem with rocket acceleration in space is that we burn up mountains of fuel just getting away from earth's gravity. (same problem would occur leaving any high-gravity planet.) and the more fuel you carry to begin with the more you have to burn to pick it up past gravity.
  A moon base (exactly what they are exploring possibilities for now) would allow a departure from 1/6 the gravity. (I'd go with Mason's suggestion on this - until something worth manned investigation comes along).
   We don't know if it's possible to develop worm-hole doorways as yet, but if we stop trying we are guaranteed not to - and I find not-trying much more sad and empty for all of mankind than endlessly attempting to make the leap(s) in the face of centuries of minuscule microscopic steps forward.
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« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2009, 04:51:41 PM »

There actually is a speed limit in space - and that is the speed of light as far as we know so far.  I'm not sure where Beemaster got his number of 17.8 KMPH and I'm sure that isn't actually a speed limit exactly.  However the faster you go the more energy it takes to accelerate to a higher speed - even in space - until theoretically as you approach the speed of light it would take a more or less infinite amount of energy to continue to accelerate. 

For a traveler going a significant fraction of the speed of light time slows down by that same factor. So if you are going 1/2 lightspeed only half as much time passes for you as it would to someone that stays on earth - so what seems like a ten year round trip to you would be a 20 year wait for your return to your family that stays here.

Or I could be completely wrong.
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« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2009, 05:25:44 PM »

The sad part is when the MISSION of great and speid scale finds its way to the nearest star, records of our existance as humans may have already been wiped clear off the Earth - we have a hard enough time guessing what 5 years from now will look like, let know 191 thousand years. A whole new civilization could be here in 5000 years (just as a number) our own history LORE at best. There may likely be no rule of law if civilization takes a giant leap backward while we are gone. Likely too that anyone would know a great ship of explorers who lived their whole life in search of a distant star died in vain because people stopped knowing of their existance hundreds of decade a go. Imagine that, all that time and no phone to call home to - ouch.

I wonder (in my sci-fi head) if there is out there in space somewhere a GPS that exists showing all star systems and planetary inhabitability and the means to go there instantly? It would be wonderful if life is like Star Trek at times. If they are out there, although we may be a only a 2 star rating in the GPS directory of interesting spots - maybe some day the will stop by and check out the accomidations. I already believe they have (they meaning a few alien species from several distant places, eah with their own unique air craft. And maybe we've been visited by thousand of encounters over milleniums.

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« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2009, 05:35:49 PM »

Just fold space to the nearest habitable planet and beam me up Scotty! ninja
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« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2009, 06:04:11 PM »

Traveling at the speed of light or even greater to explore and or set up camp here and there sounds wonderful BUT what I'd be worried about with the mode of transportation moving at any speed is running into the inevitable obstacles of solids whirling around the universe. Unless there was a way to create a parting of the seas, a laser to turn whats ahead into nothing or some sort of a bounce affect which would require more energy, I'd think the end results would be a devastating splat.
 
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« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2009, 07:07:30 PM »

If you happen to be into Einstein at all check out "worm hole". It'll lead you in a different direction (maybe?).

Scott
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« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2009, 08:11:21 PM »

Quote
Just fold space to the nearest habitable planet and beam me up Scotty!

Actually I think this is how we will eventually end up traveling the universe.  There has been some theory already presented that examines the possibility of creating a massive gravity force and in a sense folding space.  If you can imagine a piece of paper most would think the shortest distance from corner to corner would be a straight line.  The theory would be to fold the paper and make the two corners touch.

There is a guy named Robert Lazar that has claimed he worked at area 51 in the reverse engineering of alien space craft propulsion.  He says that this can be accomplished by using ununpentium which is atomic element 115.. Supposedly this is an element beyond the man maid elements on the periodic table that is stable.  By blasting this element with electrons the theory is that it creates a gravitation force great enough to bend light and hence space.  We do know for a fact that gravity of big stars etc does bend light waves.

Lazar is either genuine or one of the greatest liars men of our times.  His videos etc are all over and pretty fun to look at.

Make your own judgment.   

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« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2009, 05:31:12 PM »

 I look at it like this:
tens of thousands of years ago cave men would float on logs to cross rivers and lakes for trade.
for him to explain the effort it would take to navigate the world would be unimaginable to him.
 Now we do it commercially in about a day.
 so we're there at the log, eventually well hollow it out put a sail, on it make it bigger and it will be a standard practice. we shouldn't give up because the physics are unimaginable now.
 We're hard wired to be curious and explore and I think we should.. A sci fi style space station, a trip to mars would be a good start. another 100 years Who knows.
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« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2009, 03:19:45 AM »

I will give you a billion dollars each if set foot on anything other than the moon in the next 500 years.
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« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2009, 07:13:07 AM »

I will give you a billion dollars each if set foot on anything other than the moon in the next 500 years.
If I thought that either of us would be around at the end of that period, I'd take that wager. Mainly because it's going to be cheaper to go to Mars than to actually control the climate here, and with the determination toward that goal the economics will drive the effort.
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« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2009, 07:57:19 AM »

I will give you a billion dollars each if set foot on anything other than the moon in the next 500 years.


Micks in charge of Federal Tax Returns, who says the Space Exploration couldn't payoff.
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« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2009, 08:23:12 AM »

Sure glad Columbus, Magellan, DeSoto and numerous others didn't have Beemaster's attitude toward exploration, or an Obama government to tell them "it's too risky, you might get hurt!"

Oh, I don't know.  I kinda wish those early explorers would have stayed home.  Life might have been much better for my people. evil
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« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2009, 08:34:38 AM »

Something else just occurred to me.  When NASA sent the Voyager probes on their way with the gold record with greetings from different peoples around the world, an old Navajo speaker was asked to record a message.  After swearing his grandson to secrecy, he made the recording.  Years later, a Navajo speaking man was at NASA and the engineers asked if he would translate the mysterious message.  After they played the message for him, he started laughing saying, "It says "Beware of the white man, for he will steal your lands, too."  "  Perhaps we will never hear from any alien life forms or, if we do, they may just be really hostile.... shocked
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« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2009, 09:03:00 AM »

Concerning Speed:

Oh... I was using numbers based on Apollo Mission speed, the speed at which we moved to the moon, I realise we can go a FEW PERCENT FASTER than that realistically - I would be surprised if see "point of no return" speeds barely over 30,000 an hour. That is a lot of fuel needed to get a HUMAN HABITAT the top speeds we can successfully speed to that point through thrust usage - that leaves little fuel for the craft, this remaining feul for all maneuvering the spit through space, with likely only enough ful to make a few hunded course corrections before no thuster fuel will be left in the tanks.

Oh, my opinon, without doing the math, even speeds 10X the speed what I think is a liberal maximum speed, I beieve we wouldn't see BUT a FEW SECONDS difference in our watched both here on Earth and the time aboard the speeding craft which reach its destination and it takes 210 thousands years from now a call is recieved from the ship, they have arrived. But that message was sent 105 thosand years ago  (for those of you liking to throw LIGHT YEARS around as a standard for speed).
i just read, we did see real speed of 25,400 mph as Appolo 10 sling-shot around the darkside of the moon.

I would rather base my time in YEARS not light years, I don't live in light years, my years are detirmine by the revoltionary time as my planet circles rotates around its sun. THAT is a long enough measuring stick I want to use: somemore math here (between mph/years/light years - "let's say" That length of your stick in your hand indicating your 1 EARTH YEAR of 365 days, this ruler stick is 3 feet long. It scales ONE EARTH YEAR OF TIME.... YOUR RULER would be the length of Mars and back long to describe how far you have gone using your 3 ft stick in your hand, which again show MY MAXIMUM THRUST GUEST SPEED OPINIONS and how short a distance we actually traveled in human years.

I find it funny and cool how we say that people traveling faster, supposedly no to exceed lights speed - I say why isn't light speed on another colorwheel we have only just no started to discover. But if you send a deepspace ship out today, I will follow the newstories, but it will never be seen by human kind, nor will they get there (and hopefully the find somewhere to TERRA PLANET some distant planet on a hopefully VIABLE planet or moon to land their ship on (ideally) or have to launch bio-sphere for our DISTANT DISTAND ANCENTORS who never knew of us - except for Youtube, that will probably be still up - lol.

I just don't believe our HUMAN EARTH BOUND residents will be civilized, let known still occupy and the ground we call the USA and its very radified government will start thalking to us, but it is (according to me - 4.37 light years AKA 30,000 mph TIMES 210 thousand years of time for an AUDIO SIGNAL TO GET BACK AND FORTH.

Imagine this conversation by these two stangers 210 thousand years from now. "What's new" Reply "Not much" "How about you replies, with an answer "Not bad" - that conversation would take 13.2 LIGHT YEARS.

I have to assume, there are turely on their own, there is a pont a hundred years from now that some health issue would kill off a a percentage of the inhabitants, and us with all the flu shots here and unable to get it to them.
About PARTICLE DEBREE in space, it is a serious issue with countless mirco pieces of space dust, to debree the size of cities flinging and we have to dodge them by slowing down to let it lass before us - scrubbing all speed off the vehicle to the safe point where the ship can return to previos speed, or you can change course to avoid collision and then spend fuel returning to privious flight.

I totally agree, lets spend that money (cause the goverment only gives NASA so much a year) Lets take the 20 to 30 billion over 5 years to make a ships that get us around our solar systems - in most cases landing on moons (remember that moons (like ours) has grea temerature changes, They do indeed have months based on their planet they satelite. Taking use of what sun and temperaures they have to work with. Building a bio-derm won't be to long an ordeal - good luck with the whole habability thing. Let's see if we can grow anything in the solid we try to terraform.

I agree with (loose phrase) of Einstein is "I don't know what the third woeld war will be fought with, but the forth will be fought with Sticks and Stones!" I fear humanity not here before we ever get anywhere substancial in space. But coming soon should be a NEW evolution of species, the one that takes over humans. As you look at the "ape to man graph" and nothing even suggests that graph stop there.

I believe some day that homosapian women give birth to a new bread of child who will evolve into the new species at puberty. All of a sudden, an entire of generation, our chlidred will all rise and wipe out the current human race - lets face it, I always heard we were born when previous man was still hear - did they just come up from the ground or come from the human race - so birthing children is the likely way a new species enters our world, they are our babies.

Enough, I could go on forever, it is a great topic.

Dang it, one more thing. in 2012, our Milkly way alights with the center of many other Galaxies - try to imagne that, something as big as the Milkyway Galaxy, so far away from other galaxies will align nearly like the tunblers in a safe. Imagine a CRAFT from another distant galaxy, a third the way across the Universe - somehow creates technolgy to use that allows them to SKIP ontop or through the alignment and show up here in a few years. That alignment isn't just  a few second long, it is a GALACTIC RESET of our CLOCK, it has been 25000 years since that last happen, basical December 21, 2012 we are taking down an old calendar, we put up a new 25000 year calander. As Planets, Earth moves at 1500 mph as it moves around the sun daily, as it roates 1 time. Now image a galaxy with 100 billion stars, all rotating around each other within a galaxy, and everything revolves around everything else, and ES, everything has a cycle, sometime extremely complicated intertwining of solar systens making their way arond galaxys. I have always wanted to know what object (lets say a galaxy) I wonder how FAST it is moving through space - I can't image a galaxy flying though space at millions of miles PER second.


Enough Smiley


« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 09:21:04 AM by beemaster » Logged

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