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Author Topic: space exploration : what do you think  (Read 5347 times)
irekkin
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« on: October 21, 2009, 06:03:00 PM »

this is sort of ot but i wanted to know what you folks thought about space exploration. is it a waste of time? or is it essential to our future.
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« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2009, 07:00:30 PM »

this is sort of ot but i wanted to know what you folks thought about space exploration. is it a waste of time? or is it essential to our future.

It could be either, but historically it has spun off a lot of new technology that has created jobs, wealth and increased our standard of living.  It's a big up front investment though, and no guarantee of valuable new tech.

Good question.
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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2009, 07:20:20 PM »

What is essential to the future?

Most things were not essentials until we invented them.  Who would think about living without a microwave oven for example yet nobody mentioned it in the 60's.  f course if we had to evacuate one day, block an oncoming meteor or defend ourselves from some sort of space derived enemy space exploration could be essential but that is not what NASA is all about.  The threat of that however would be a great money maker for NASA.

Space exploration is an essential urge of humans.  It is our ingrained instinct to learn and explore.  We look up at the stars and HAVE to learn more.

For my money un-manned space exploration is the future.  Since we are compelled to look outward why not take advantage of the new inventions they may spawn from the program.  Lots of cheap unmanned space probes would be my directive.

 
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« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2009, 09:15:38 PM »

What is essential to the future?

Most things were not essentials until we invented them.  Who would think about living without a microwave oven for example yet nobody mentioned it in the 60's.  f course if we had to evacuate one day, block an oncoming meteor or defend ourselves from some sort of space derived enemy space exploration could be essential but that is not what NASA is all about.  The threat of that however would be a great money maker for NASA.

Space exploration is an essential urge of humans.  It is our ingrained instinct to learn and explore.  We look up at the stars and HAVE to learn more.

For my money un-manned space exploration is the future.  Since we are compelled to look outward why not take advantage of the new inventions they may spawn from the program.  Lots of cheap unmanned space probes would be my directive.

 

I think one way trips.  I bet there would be no shortage of vols who would go to Mars knowing full well that they would never come back.  Way more feasible than boosting enough fuel out for a return trip.  The first settlers to the Americas knew they were probably never coming back - when they walked across from Russia.

I think you're right - the pioneering urge is hardwired in.
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« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2009, 09:18:08 PM »

I like the original saying.."If we were meant to fly, we'd have wings!"
Then again, I figure wars should be settled with clubs and sticks....Then, end it with a mess of mead to drink and pour all over each other!
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« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2009, 09:30:45 PM »

I like the original saying.."If we were meant to fly, we'd have wings!"
Then again, I figure wars should be settled with clubs and sticks....Then, end it with a mess of mead to drink and pour all over each other!
your friend,
john

I agree.  Along with - if we were meant to go naked we would be born that way.  Or - if we were meant to sky dive we wouldn't have this perfectly good airplane...
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« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2009, 11:41:50 PM »

I'm in favor of space exploration as I think it is worth while, if we find another habitable planet we can send all the conservatives there and leave the liberals to their fate.

But as for what is essential to our future the answer is  catch chick delivery chop chop happy campers  the same thing as has been essential in the past.  We need to relearn how to live off the land and work with our hands.
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2009, 03:08:28 AM »

If we can overcome the force of gravity on earth, then the stars really are the limit.

We get to the moon and the ISS and even satellites use the same technology to get into orbit. basically light a huge firecracker, keep it straight and point it up.

We should concerntrate the cash on a new form of energy to propel rockets. Until we do, we can look and sample all we like, but its a waste of time.

We already know whats out there near us, thanks to the meteorites that fall every day. Its a veritable mine. Bringing the stuff back is easy. getting the gear up there to mine it is the problem.

By the time we are able to mine other planets, I reckon we will have had nuclear, or worse war by then, so who knows what man will achieve before this planet ceases to exist.
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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2009, 04:36:54 AM »

I could do ten pages on this topic while standing on my head, but I'll keep it short - I'm at work Smiley

The importance of attempting to go beyond the confines of our own Planet, Solar System, Galaxy or even alternate Universes is a quest of mans, no harder to understand that a kid walking the woods and wanting to know what is over the next hill.

But, and it is a big but... We measure things in LIGHTYEARS an extremely large distance to us, which may be meaningless to the rest of the Universe. Our radiowaves travel at the speed of light as well , so we opt to long range and long term attempt to communicate through SETI or look through Hubble and the best of the best land mounted telescopes.

All which means if we never give up the idea that light-speed is as fast as we can communicate ( forget travel- seems that one is for Trekies) then the best we can do is send out and listen for intellegent messages, we seem to think will come in mathamatical code - again us assuming a Universal language.

I just always wonder if the rest of "Life" possibly out there thinks as we do - or is our thinking too based on our carbon life existance.

Searching further than our own solar system seems like a waste of time, we be sending ARKs not just ships, we'd need a biosystem, generations of healthy people to replenish the crews and all the while, greater ships may be in the works, rendering the existing arks futile.

How you all like the "Blasting a rocket in the moon?" what a lame event that was, for what to find out if the Moon has frozen water on it. Last I remember reading, the moon was likely a collection of Earth particles that were blasted into space from a huge asteroid hit and gravitation pulled the exploded pieces into a rough shape that now orbits the Earth.

I also hear how rare it is that heavy metals are near or on top of the moon (compared to most planets and other moons) that supports the Moon being Earth pieces broken away and gone out to reform into what the moon is today - meaning the heavyier metals stayed to the surface HOLDING the same side facing the Earth as it continually orbits. Lighter metals due to the Moons pressure get crushed and held deep toward the center.

So I think it best to stay here and let others find us. With current technology and dealing with such slow speeds as the SPEED OF LIGHT (slow relative to what might be the REAL UNIVERSAL STANDARD) the further we explore, the longer it takes to phone home, eventually few calls would make a difference, especially if months or years are needed to get an answer from Earth to our own space craft.

Staying here and letting those smarter, more evolved find us is a more logical answer. And without getting all Sc-Fi on you, the way it has likely happened since the birth of our planet.

Sure we can spend Trillions and Googles of dollars to go exploring, but I don't think we have evolved nearly enough to go play in space expecting to find out anything substantial. It seems that under the right conditions, hidrogen and oxygen can exist, knowing that possibility at best can say LIFE could have or does exist else where. But if we all ready know or at least assume to a great degree of probability that water will exist, then the search for it really doesn't justify the cost of finding it.

Let's stay home, putz around the Solar System - but 3 years to go to Mars and Back alone tells me that we are far from doing this right. We don't have the technology to explore beyond minor accomplishments - although getting to the Moon and seeing the Gemeni, Viking and Appollo stuff in the National Air and Space Museum makes me a proud American, and surely respectful of anyone willing to travel 600+ thousand round trip miles to the Moon, I still believe that even with all our newest technology, we are just as in the dark on how to explore today as we were 40 years ago.

So it is only through UNMANNED SPACE CRAFT we even stand a chance to make it affordable and more over, practical. But then, it could be 10,000 years before we hear anything back worth while, or maybe a hundred thousand - what kind of technology might we have then? No time is a good time when you aren't ready for a mission. Seems to me if brilliant life exists out there, it is surely likely they will find us long before we find them. It's the waiting part that stinks.



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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2009, 10:18:37 AM »

yes, space exploration is as impractical as say, moving live colonies of bees to the new world from europe on sailboats.  it will never happen Smiley

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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2009, 10:59:13 AM »


Let's stay home, putz around the Solar System - but 3 years to go to Mars and Back alone tells me that we are far from doing this right. We don't have the technology to explore beyond minor accomplishments -


Mars round trip in 3 months may be possible in the near future:
http://www.canada.com/technology/rocket+engine+could+make+trips+Mars+realistic/2119300/story.html


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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2009, 11:36:01 AM »

Quote
Sure we can spend Trillions and Googles of dollars to go exploring, but I don't think we have evolved nearly enough to go play in space expecting to find out anything substantial. It seems that under the right conditions, hidrogen and oxygen can exist, knowing that possibility at best can say LIFE could have or does exist else where. But if we all ready know or at least assume to a great degree of probability that water will exist, then the search for it really doesn't justify the cost of finding it.

i wonder if similar arguments were used in the courts of Europe as explorers petitioned for $ and equipment for their voyages?
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2009, 12:04:42 PM »

Ultimately it will take only one thing for us to seriously start exploring space - a way to make a profit off of it.  Of course there is no feasible way to make money from space exploration - just like you can't make money with free search engines. 

We just don't see it yet.
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2009, 03:18:47 PM »

  The chance to make money is already there.
  Way back when TWA was selling tickets on a commercial sub-orbital flight people snatched them up. Every year someone jumps through the hoops to get a ride in a Russian launch.
  What's holding things up is the agreement between nations to not comercialize space.
The idea was to keep the rich western countries and the Evil Capitolists from somehow making a buck,and it worked.
  Let Motel Six open an orbiting hotel and you will have folks backed up for miles to get a space. Let Honda, Toyota, IBM, and Microsoft built and hang their own labs in space and there will be a sky full of new stars in weeks.
  Nope, the only thing keeping us on this rock is the same government regulations that are choking the life out of us now.
  That and the military like to control what's over their heads.
 
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2009, 03:42:20 PM »

On profit, I don't believe that there ever will be a POUND per FUEL USAGE for a pound of cargo, whether man or equipment - but that day really doesn't exist yet. Sure we have jets that take you low elipicle orbit and enjoy that view, dock up and stay at the space station or just go home after a handshake - still about $20,000,000 for an average weight person. And fac it, all the M/Billionaires have had time to easliy have a weekend in space, only problem - NOT THAT MANY PEOPLE who CAN AFFORD IT choose to do so. It is a pourer mans pocketbook that would make the space station in to a Motel 6 in the sky.

Remember you are only about 182 miles up if you are on the Space Station. It does orbit the Earth 15 times daily (imagine all them sun-ups and sun-downs - wow) and surely nothing is a greater HIGH that walking in space, just you a life line and your atmosphere suit. What a view that must be.

No doubt, if I had it within a price range that I can afford (even if going in hock, but using credit wisely )If you have no one to leave a small fortune to, you can live an nice life if you saved welll and wasn't destroyed with the market and banking and housing hit the fan.

I guess I mean to say, sure we can figure how to go places and make the food and air and water always be plentyful. But TIME is a killer, Mars 3 months at 17,000mph to the get there, then wait just as long, but I bet if it is nice you'll gladly stay in a Terra-dome rather than on a spaceship. But then the ride home, going from Buds to Dallas's house half killed me and Dallas had a broken ankle only hours old. Can't imagine 3 or more months for three legs each of a one and and a 270 mission complete - I doubt anyone will ever want to pay for that out of there pockets, bet that trip would be closer to a Trillion to do.
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2009, 05:41:34 PM »

Who knows, maybe once they get the LHC up and running the key to fusion or some other safe clean source of energy might make giant bottle rockets obsolete overnight.  Probably not, but who knows?  Once a generation of people grow up off of our planet they probably won't ever want to come here (too hot, too heavy, too dirty. too many earthers...) and an entire economy could develop that doesn't involve boosting earth stuff into orbit. 

Then again we very well might be stuck right here forever.  We will be for sure if we decide that it's not worth the trouble to try. 
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« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2009, 08:02:09 PM »

I for one find space exploration fascinating. And yes I support N.A.S.A (they are one of the largest employers here after all). As for leaving this beautiful world I live in to actually go out there and try it...never gonna happen!

Scott
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« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2009, 10:12:54 PM »

Sure glad Columbus, Magellan, DeSoto and numerous others didn't have Beemaster's attitude toward exploration, or an Obama government to tell them "it's too risky, you might get hurt!"
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« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2009, 01:11:14 AM »

Sure glad Columbus, Magellan, DeSoto and numerous others didn't have Beemaster's attitude toward exploration, or an Obama government to tell them "it's too risky, you might get hurt!"

You totally don't understand and I don't think a one line reply justifies everything I wrote in this post about this subject and likely a hundred others over the years. We have spent Billions on exploration and pretty much know (because of all that exploring) what is out there and where, our "exploring" has helped create wonderful things and opened up much of the Universe to us But you cannot compare that to circumnavigating the Earth or mapping it for the first time.

All the exploration of our planet is rewarding to our species, we have so much left to learn about the Earth and underwater, we could spend another thousand lifetimes to study what is here, not travel endlessly toward distant objects that may take ten thousand years to get to. Especially since we likely know what that distant object is all composed of through all our research and exploring already.

If the Earth were a super planet, imagine in the 15th century traveling 500 to 1000 years to cross an ocean using that time's technology, it is the same thing as going exploring in space today, except we know how far things in space are away from us - leaving Earth to get there is futile at 17,000mph. If given the knowledge back in the 1400s that it will take 1000 years to cross a great ocean before reaching land, do you think the explorers would do it with their current technology? I sure think they would not. I can't imagine in the day any ship being built, with the plans to be fruitful and multiply for 50 generations just to get to the new world. So the choice is to a) not bother going since you know you cannot (at this time) complete the long voyage b) wait for a time when such a task is possible. Whether across a vast ocean on a huge planet or to travel deep into space, time is the real killer and most important about space travel, I honestly believe if we send a ship/probe deep space for X number of years, long before it reaches its destination, we will have built a ship that could beat it there.

See if we didn't have things already well mapped out in space, if we had no idea how far things were away, then exploring seems adventurous. But to know it takes an Ark to get there and 20 generations of people must be born and die aboard before we reach our target, not knowing if there is an viable use for the massive undergoing, then why go in the first place?

We should continue to build greater telescopes and incredible software to track everything in space, learn more and more how it works, if indeed we haven't gotten most of the possibilities down already. So what difference does it make if the Universe is 17 or 700 billion years old - frankly, since we can only age it by the distance we can see, there is a huge flaw in our dating process.

We need to develop technology that can get us there faster, not just get us there - that is the difference. If you told me tomorrow that we have launched a deep space probe that will reach its target area in 30 thousand years, I'd ask for my tax money back. We humans only live but a blink in time, the Universe is literally timeless in comparison. I think it is a shame that everything is so vastly distand, but it is.

NASA is going back and rethinking sending equipment to the moon to build the rocket to Mars again - an idea they all but scrapped about a year ago. But because of the massive radiation humans would be subjected to they need protection and the cheapest material to isolate them from radiation is packing a double hulled  vessel with moon dust and use the Moon's 1/6th less gravity to launch into space easier.

I see going to Mars and other planets, although the others are really stretching it for man, we cannot survive or even land on most planets. MArs is a great thing if you must explore. But the probes that still function today and the mapping in great detail of the surface has super computers able to do simulator fly overs yielding great data without leaving home.

After Mars, that's about it for exploration, except probes. I'm not against exploration, but going somewhere knowing nothing is there is a silly waste of money. We have 7 miles to the deepest parts of the ocean and have been as far (with people aboard) just over 2.6 miles down. That is a goal of exploration that is obtainable and we know there is likely all new species of life there to find - maybe some crustacean that yields a cure for cancer. I'm just saying, go where we can use the money best until we have the technology to go furter, I don't think THAT is being closed minded on Exploration.

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« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2009, 11:31:33 AM »

I forgot to mention, all this talk of light speed. I don't know if you knoow that it is 571 million miles per hour. That is a light year. The nearest Galaxy to us is 25,000 light years to get to - now I hate these eqTIONS, BUT THEY ARE FASCINATING.

At 571 million miles per hour TIME 25,000 years to the nearest Galaxy. Now, we travel at around 17,800 mph using any vessel from earth. Lets take that 17,8K and divide it into 571 million and see how many years to multiply by using our current max space speed. So at going 571 million miles an hour for a year, your are 1 out of 24,900 years closer. Tell me we can do that, come on - ugh.

That's 32078.6 years travel at our current technology, times the number of years to get there at the speed of light and we get the actual time it takes to get there in human and Earth years - that number of years to get to the nearest Galaxy is 801,966,292.13 which is 801 million years to the nearest galaxy - you want to fund THAT PROJECT???

I'd rather site back and listen for radio signals from someone else or even better a reply to our own SETI MESSAGE all these many decades.

801.9 million years to take our current technology space craft to the NEAREST Galaxy, image the generations, which many people agree is 20 years. Most people live to see Great Grand Children, so let's do that math.

If we send a ARK into space, assuming that copulation is what is expected so a true, healthy mix of human family's will live together in a bio-dome on its way to another galaxy for 40 million GENERATIONS of successful human breeding and a vessel would require an ultimate human population of 544 people (science mag) so imagine the size of the ship it would take to hold in a bio-dorm  environment for 40 million generations to succeed without failure or disease to get to the nearest Galaxy. That is NOT a freaking project I want to pay for out of my tax dollars. I'd gladly just listen for signals from others, hopefully within a few hundred years we may get a reply via another itellegent planet, where it takes 150 years between mic button pushing. Yes, every talk from each side takes 125 years (based on this trip we are taking here) image 125 between responses to your question.

All this is so far away, and they are our galaxy's nearest neighbor. But stop forgetting we built HUBBLE and it can see our neighbor galaxies in UNMATCHED PHOTO QUALITY IMAGES - why aren't some people not happy with knowing what it looks like, but humble enough to admit we cannot take 801 million years to get to our nearest galaxy.

I hope this put some things in better prospective. It is easy to forget how far things are apart. We need to admit that 801 million years is a hard project to budget for and imagine the date complete to lauch - probaby a hundred years to build BEFORE hiking it it pieces, reassembled in space and then launch it deep space, let us know how your ancestors keep total records of your 801 million year journey (hopefully Windows 7  is stable  lol) .

I hope that makes some more sense.



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