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Author Topic: Quilt box on Lang hives  (Read 7420 times)
David LaFerney
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« on: October 19, 2009, 01:10:26 PM »

Where I live in middle TN our winters are kind of manic depressive  - cold and dry one day, warm and rainy the next with 40 degree temperature swings not all that unusual in a 24 hour period.  Maybe it's like that all over.  But I know sometimes when it goes from cold to wet, almost everything gets a layer of condensation on it.  Anyway, already I've had this:



I tried adding a 1/2 of insulation board under the telescoping cover, and that helped, but condensation was still apparent.  So I decided to build a quilt box (more or less) like those used on a Warre hive.





Those are just medium hive bodies with holes drilled in them (at an upward angle) and screen stapled to the bottom, and filled with planer shavings. 

What do you think? 
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« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2009, 03:04:22 PM »

They work fine.  I prefer to use newspaper instead of sawdust/hay/stray.  It is less messy to deal with.

By the way,  you can do it with just an empty super and a piece of screening,  and don't have to build a special box.  I don't find the vent holes provide much drying out of the material to justify a separate made box.   

Only draw back is it limits the ability/ease of feeding.
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wd
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« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2009, 04:24:17 PM »


removed my question, thought it was silly when asked, think it's silly now.


« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 05:34:30 PM by wd » Logged
David LaFerney
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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2009, 05:45:48 PM »

They work fine.  I prefer to use newspaper instead of sawdust/hay/stray.  It is less messy to deal with.

By the way,  you can do it with just an empty super and a piece of screening,  and don't have to build a special box.  I don't find the vent holes provide much drying out of the material to justify a separate made box.   

Only draw back is it limits the ability/ease of feeding.

The planer shavings that I'm using have very little dust in them.  The holes that I drilled are a size I can easily plug back up if I decide I don't like them or want to return them to being just hive bodies.  I like to experiment.  When I was a kid "It's an experiment." became almost like a swear word as far as my Mom was concerned.

Has it been your experience that the material in there gets wet, or just that the vent holes aren't needed for it to stay dry?
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David LaFerney
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« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2009, 05:48:07 PM »


removed my question, thought it was silly when asked, think it's silly now.




There really aren't many cases of questions that are all that silly.  Please, ask.
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« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2009, 05:49:29 PM »

Has it been your experience that the material in there gets wet, or just that the vent holes aren't needed for it to stay dry?

Yes,it can get very wet.  In fact I keep an eye on the newspaper and change it periodically.  I don't know about by you,  but up here nothing dries out in the winter unless it gets direct sunlight, so the holes did nothing.
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« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2009, 05:55:04 PM »

Quote from: wd
Are you using 10 frames in the hive body and if not, why? I'm asking because I'm thinking about using langstroth hive body's as warre.

Most folks use 10 frames in the brood chambers, but some use 9.

A Langstroth box does not conform to the golden mean,  and furthermore does not create the ideal volume determined by Warre.  But there is nothing saying you can't try.   I do think that with the bigger Lanstroth boxes you will have more issues with them curving and crossing comb.   The ~12" of the Warre seems to fit nicely in their range of straight comb, much beyond that and they start to curve.
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David LaFerney
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2009, 05:58:04 PM »

Has it been your experience that the material in there gets wet, or just that the vent holes aren't needed for it to stay dry?

Yes,it can get very wet.  In fact I keep an eye on the newspaper and change it periodically.  I don't know about by you,  but up here nothing dries out in the winter unless it gets direct sunlight, so the holes did nothing.

Actually we sometimes have periods in the winter when the air is so dry it sucks the moisture out of everything.  How does that work on an actual Warre hive when the idea is supposed to be to leave it alone?
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2009, 06:09:02 PM »

How does that work on an actual Warre hive when the idea is supposed to be to leave it alone?

Actually, if you look at the Warre design,  the quilt box is completely sealed by the cover and has no ventilation.  The quilt box can also be removed without disturbing the bees because it is above the floured cloth.

The experience I talked about above was with Langstroth hives.
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wd
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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2009, 06:53:13 PM »

Quote from: wd
Are you using 10 frames in the hive body and if not, why? I'm asking because I'm thinking about using langstroth hive body's as warre.

Most folks use 10 frames in the brood chambers, but some use 9.

a Langstroth box does not conform to the golden mean,  and furthermore does not create the ideal volume determined by Warre.  But there is nothing saying you can't try.   I do think that with the bigger Lanstroth boxes you will have more issues with them curving and crossing comb.   The ~12" of the Warre seems to fit nicely in their range of straight comb, much beyond that and they start to curve.




Thanks for answering, much appreciated!



[/quote]

removed my question, thought it was silly when asked, think it's silly now.

There really aren't many cases of questions that are all that silly.  Please, ask.


my apologies, will do.






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David LaFerney
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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2009, 07:52:26 PM »

Yes,it can get very wet.  In fact I keep an eye on the newspaper and change it periodically.  I don't know about by you,  but up here nothing dries out in the winter unless it gets direct sunlight, so the holes did nothing.

After thinking about this I remembered that in colder (colder than here) areas water vapor from a home can condense inside of the attic insulation where it contacts freezing air and even form ice inside of the insulation.  We simply don't have that issue here - attics in our area get pretty warm on almost any sunny day even most of the time in the winter. Of course our ceilings are made out of drywall, not screen wire.  Anyway, I'm hoping that perhaps a vented quilt box will work better here than it does in NY state.  I guess I'll find out.

I looked up the Warre hive plans again, and you are correct the cover board makes the quilt material pretty much unventilated.  I never noticed that.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 08:05:04 PM by David LaFerney » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2009, 09:17:29 PM »

Anyway, I'm hoping that perhaps a vented quilt box will work better here than it does in NY state.  I guess I'll find out.

I hope you are correct.   We all know climate plays a big part and it is so easy to forget that when getting into these type of discussions (at least for me Undecided )
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BoBn
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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2010, 10:11:04 PM »

Does anyone use a quilt box on Lang hives?
I use telescoping covers with 1" bluefoam and luan sandwich to help buffer the effects of summer sun and help with winter condensation.  It seems that wood shavings might work to buffer the effects of both temperature and humidity.
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2010, 07:44:32 AM »

Actually, it depends on which roof you use on a "People's Hive" in terms of ventilation.

If you use the 'economy roof' Warre designed, there is no ventilation, but if you use the standard roof, there are openings below the 'eaves' specifically for ventilation.



Quote
1 – Wooden quilt 100 mm tall.
2 – Coarse cloth fixed underneath the quilt to support the insulating material: chopped oat straw,
sawdust, etc.
3 & 5 – Cavity permitting a continuous flow of air.
4 – isolating board that prevents access of mice to the quilt. It is fixed to the roof.
5 – gap formed by assembly of the wood.


This drawing from "Beekeeping For All" 12th edition ( bold emphasis my own.)

Further discussion on the roof continues on page 53 of the book...( again, bold emphasis my own.)

Quote
The roof

The roof of the People's Hive is arranged in a way such that it contains a large void at its top. The
air circulates rapidly and freely in this void. Furthermore, the void is too big for cobwebs to be able to
stop the circulation of air there.


It is under this type of roof that I have observed a more regular temperature, even when the hive is
exposed to the sun.


At the battle-front, I had the occasion to see some light military buildings. The roof was also
formed from two planks or from two overlapping sheets of metal. a high-ranking officer who had
lived long in the colonies told me that military tents were designed on the same principle to combat the
heat of the sun.

The design of our roof is thus well established according to rules dictated by experience.
Roofs are often covered by bituminous felt. I am not in favour of this. It is an expense.
Furthermore, bituminous felt often traps moisture out of sight which rots the board that supports it.
I am not in favour of sheet metal. In rainy weather or hail it produces a sound sufficient to disturb
the bees. Moreover, it is permeable to the heat of the sun.

I prefer painted wood. a board painted on both or all three sides lasts a long time and does not
have the faults of bituminous felt or sheet metal. But additionally, I prefer white paint that reflects
heat. Creosote, which is undoubtedly the best wood preserver, is not suitable because of its smell and
above all because of its colour.



Big Bear
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Robo
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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2010, 02:54:17 PM »

Actually, it depends on which roof you use on a "People's Hive" in terms of ventilation.

Actually it depends on your definition of ventilation.   Neither Warre hive design roof provides direct ventilation from the hive.  The isolation board (#4) in your drawings is a solid board.   It is similar to the roof designs of our homes that allow air to circulate above our living space, but does not provide direct ventilation from the living space.
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2010, 06:08:28 PM »

yes, this is true.  However, the isolation board is intended to be a thin board (about 3/8") which dissipates the heat and moisture from the quilt box in relatively reasonable manner, especially with a breeze blowing through above it.

In a modern roof, that isolation board could just as easily be replaced by a stiff aluminum screen to keep mice, etc out and provide even better ventilation.

In addition, Warre tells us that in regard to the quilt box it's intended for the beekeeper to 'stir' the contents from time to time to release moisture in the quilt material. While he doesn't stipulate, one might continue with the thinking of the minimal 2 visits/year and 'stir' the quilt and/or add/remove material at those bi-annual visits.

Big Bear
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 06:25:19 PM by bigbearomaha » Logged
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